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From: guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>
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Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: {ko} and {do} with .a-/.e- attitudinals
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Le mardi 20 novembre 2012 01:44:52 UTC+9, guskant a =E9crit :
>
>
> Le samedi 17 novembre 2012 09:23:29 UTC+9, mudri a =E9crit :
> > Should {ko} be used in sentences marked with {.e'o}? It's something I=
=20
> see often (and usually do myself), but {do} is generally used with {.e'u}=
=20
> in particular. My thought was that, because attitudinals beginning with "=
a"=20
> and "e" (and some "i") show that the marked text is a hypothetical=20
> assertion, not a real one, using {do} would be the correct thing for the=
=20
> hypothetical world (in which la'e {do} is actually doing what is said in=
=20
> the sentence). .iepei
>
>
>
> {do} may be a hypothetical one as well as a real one, depending on the=20
> context. For example,
> ganai do da'i morsi ginai mi jbena=20
> The whole sentence may be true even if {do na morsi}.
>
> {ko} and {do} are defined as follows:
> ko sumka'i le tersku noi le cusku cu minde ja cpedu le nu ke'a gasnu la'e=
=20
> le selsku
> do sumka'i le tersku
>
> The difference is only the part after {noi}, which adds the speaker's=20
> attitude of {minde ja cpedu}.
>
> "{ko} with {.e'o}" means therefore "{do} with the speaker's attitudes=20
> {minde ja cpedu} and {.e'o}". Because {.e'o} is an attitudinal of {cpedu}=
,=20
> it means "{do} with the speaker's attitude of {minde ja cpedu je cpedu}",=
=20
> which is equal to "{do} with the speaker's attitude of {cpedu}".
>

Logically thinking, I realized that {minde ja cpedu je cpedu} is not equal=
=20
to {cpedu} but to {minde je cpedu ja cpedu}. I mean "(order OR request) AND=
=20
request" is equal to "(order AND request) OR (request AND request)", or=20
shortly "(order AND request) OR request".
=20

> "{do} with {.e'o}" also means "{do} with the speaker's attitude of=20
> {cpedu}".=20
> "{ko} with {.e'o}" and "{do} with {.e'o}" have therefore the same meaning=
.
>
>
Comparing {do .e'o}, {ko .e'o} and {ko},
{do .e'o} =3D "you with the speaker's attitude of request",
{ko .e'o} =3D "you with the speaker's attitude of ((order AND request)=20
OR request)",
{ko} =3D "you with the speaker's attitude of (order OR request)".
I conclude that {do .e'o} means pure request only, while {ko .e'o} has=20
broader meaning that may imply also "order AND request", and {ko} has=20
still broader meaning that may imply also pure order.
I drew a Venn diagram on my conlclusion:
http://guskant.github.com/lojbo/mindecpedu.svg

=20

> {.e'u} is an attitudinal of {stidi}. "{ko} with {.e'u}" means, with the=
=20
> same procedure, "{do} with the speaker's attitudes of {minde ja cpedu je=
=20
> stidi}". On the other hand, "{do} with {.e'u}" means only "{do} with the=
=20
> speaker's attitude of {stidi}", which is clearly different from the meani=
ng=20
> of "{ko} with {.e'u}". Both are acceptable, and the speaker needs to sele=
ct=20
> one of them depending on one's attitude.
>
> In my opinion, however, the definition of {ko} should include also the=20
> attitudes of {curmi}, {pacna}, {stidi}, {djica}, {bilga}, because=20
> imperative expressions in natural languages include them. If so, "{ko} wi=
th=20
> {.e'u}" and "{do} with {.e'u}" would have the same meaning.
>
>

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<br><br>Le mardi 20 novembre 2012 01:44:52 UTC+9, guskant a =E9crit&nbsp;:<=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;bord=
er-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><br>Le samedi 17 novembre 2012 =
09:23:29 UTC+9, mudri a =E9crit :<br>&gt; Should {ko} be used in sentences =
marked with {.e'o}? It's something I see often (and usually do myself), but=
 {do} is generally used with {.e'u} in particular. My thought was that, bec=
ause attitudinals beginning with "a" and "e" (and some "i") show that the m=
arked text is a hypothetical assertion, not a real one, using {do} would be=
 the correct thing for the hypothetical world (in which la'e {do} is actual=
ly doing what is said in the sentence). .iepei<br><br><br><br>{do} may be a=
 hypothetical one as well as a real one, depending on the context. For exam=
ple,<br>ganai do da'i morsi ginai mi jbena <br>The whole sentence may be tr=
ue even if {do na morsi}.<br><br>{ko} and {do} are defined as follows:<br>k=
o sumka'i le tersku noi le cusku cu minde ja cpedu le nu ke'a gasnu la'e le=
 selsku<br>do sumka'i le tersku<br><br>The difference is only the part afte=
r {noi}, which adds the speaker's attitude of {minde ja cpedu}.<br><br>"{ko=
} with {.e'o}" means therefore "{do} with the speaker's attitudes {minde ja=
 cpedu} and {.e'o}". Because {.e'o} is an attitudinal of {cpedu}, it means =
"{do} with the speaker's attitude of {minde ja cpedu je cpedu}", which is e=
qual to "{do} with the speaker's attitude of {cpedu}".<br></blockquote><div=
><br></div><div>Logically thinking, I realized that {minde ja cpedu je cped=
u} is not equal to {cpedu} but to {minde je cpedu ja cpedu}. I mean "(order=
 OR request) AND request" is equal to "(order AND request) OR (request AND =
request)", or shortly&nbsp;"(order AND request) OR request".</div><div>&nbs=
p;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0=
.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">"{do} with {.e'o}" als=
o means "{do} with the speaker's attitude of {cpedu}". <br>"{ko} with {.e'o=
}" and "{do} with {.e'o}" have therefore the same meaning.<br><br></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div><div>Comparing {do .e'o}, {ko .e'o} and&nbsp;{ko},</div>=
<div>{do .e'o} =3D "you with the speaker's attitude of request",</div><div>=
{ko .e'o} =3D "you with the speaker's attitude of ((order AND request) OR&n=
bsp;request)",</div><div>{ko} =3D&nbsp;"you with the speaker's attitude of =
(order&nbsp;OR&nbsp;request)".</div><div>I conclude that {do .e'o} means pu=
re request only, while {ko .e'o} has broader meaning that may imply&nbsp;al=
so&nbsp;"order AND request", and {ko} has still&nbsp;broader meaning that m=
ay imply also pure order.</div><div>I drew a Venn diagram on my conlclusion=
:</div><div>http://guskant.github.com/lojbo/mindecpedu.svg<br></div><div><b=
r></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">{.e'u=
} is an attitudinal of {stidi}. "{ko} with {.e'u}" means, with the same pro=
cedure, "{do} with the speaker's attitudes of {minde ja cpedu je stidi}". O=
n the other hand, "{do} with {.e'u}" means only "{do} with the speaker's at=
titude of {stidi}", which is clearly different from the meaning of "{ko} wi=
th {.e'u}". Both are acceptable, and the speaker needs to select one of the=
m depending on one's attitude.<br><br>In my opinion, however, the definitio=
n of {ko} should include also the attitudes of {curmi}, {pacna}, {stidi}, {=
djica}, {bilga}, because imperative expressions in natural languages includ=
e them. If so, "{ko} with {.e'u}" and "{do} with {.e'u}" would have the sam=
e meaning.<br><div><br></div></blockquote>

<p></p>

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