Received: from mail-pa0-f62.google.com ([209.85.220.62]:57591) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1U1NVW-0001Kf-9s; Fri, 01 Feb 2013 12:46:54 -0800 Received: by mail-pa0-f62.google.com with SMTP id bh2sf139024pad.17 for ; Fri, 01 Feb 2013 12:46:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf :mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=J9HnN50vHzlCMeL/Clz7LnsCid6+VMsgYmhbX8IBNWA=; b=XycQ1+4YB6COXPr5NP/ds3H+4myugOdxfYUYy+RAHy98ZpQhDFzqS5Vq7FWEGTzOGz M0vkp6z1K5L+ZI1DENhq4xTgw6efXXTbugiR1Lc1A9Uj/G7MApJSTD0N9rM6QmGy6X7T KiTNOZH2WhTvua4ySCcAbHKg0MOwcQAsrRBWGK+m7Uhx73bfV8GcnHzcUfTzKzBRTzBs CYYsPGD/OHWi7do9D4XLcPrRRbz2UpuxyME7nCtyJR3fKnaK2IMI7pgE78Ag8/FGc9jg injewOgN9CVFfyYAOZ2qC+kmYiDiqs8CxzhtvfiGo14E8Z36kr/9b9shJyUPoTuqW5Tn YHtQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf :mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=J9HnN50vHzlCMeL/Clz7LnsCid6+VMsgYmhbX8IBNWA=; b=bOP/9LFuaAKvUMjSVvQFmAC/1D4lb2Grh7FNRReKxODoVAmeR/5yoDld9ABZMXbWYQ SB8Oh+nXFFRM9pAMCsnFsy6iTAZhFe5BmnaXUvTE0BXNeDXeuamZt+8mMuIT6xLXT/qr MbewjJLDOOv/duHDXRhpP28UP209Xy+ZdOS/yNzOmXcHtPSZzXRvXvXAplqIf3jY73q2 /KQN/TY1+61/RCGgBCE60JIHiqSIvCKugwIwVzKiv1OPWzrv1AjkdO3eFnoM/vu739tB PMllqSyMZTOoS3r81uvDUzDpxCq7qhAEIXxwC/+sKg0j8EOf9ZYDc2EUM92tYGE0H13O XJCQ== X-Received: by 10.50.149.234 with SMTP id ud10mr10085igb.11.1359751600074; Fri, 01 Feb 2013 12:46:40 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.6.233 with SMTP id e9ls553300iga.3.canary; Fri, 01 Feb 2013 12:46:39 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.42.115.1 with SMTP id i1mr10166324icq.2.1359751599455; Fri, 01 Feb 2013 12:46:39 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.42.115.1 with SMTP id i1mr10166323icq.2.1359751599418; Fri, 01 Feb 2013 12:46:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oa0-f41.google.com (mail-oa0-f41.google.com [209.85.219.41]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ex5si251473igc.1.2013.02.01.12.46.39 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 01 Feb 2013 12:46:39 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.219.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.219.41; Received: by mail-oa0-f41.google.com with SMTP id i10so4675810oag.28 for ; Fri, 01 Feb 2013 12:46:39 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.32.143 with SMTP id j15mr10881926oei.7.1359751599112; Fri, 01 Feb 2013 12:46:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.60.10.194 with HTTP; Fri, 1 Feb 2013 12:46:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 13:46:39 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Place structure "types" From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.219.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8fb1ee6e0c414004d4afd7dc X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --e89a8fb1ee6e0c414004d4afd7dc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 And by very few, I mean "I challenge you to find one that doesn't involve sumti raising". On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 1:43 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > > > On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 12:48 PM, Judson Lester wrote: > >> I'm editing a flash card deck of lojban words for my own use, and one of >> the things that's struck me is how often gismu constrain the kinds of >> things in a position. >> >> Most of the time the constraint makes sense (at least in a "sure, I can >> see it" kind of way) but as I find more gismu where a position is defined >> as being a person or an event (and all the ones that are {ka}) when the >> other way might make sense, I begin to wonder more and more why (or if?) >> the suggested kinds for a place aren't merely a guidance. >> >> For example, I'm just looking at >> >> jenca: x1 (event) shocks/stuns x2 >> > > People aren't shocking. Things people do, or in rare occasions some > property of a person are shocking. > > >> What would be the problem with "do jenca mi"? I suppose there's some >> elided abstraction that I could use in the x1 place to mean "some event >> related to you" - but why would that be neccesary? >> > > Simply because the English "You shocked me!" actually means "What you just > did shocked me!". This has to do with the issue "sumti raising", which has > been bandied about countless times throughout the years. > > >> Or do I misunderstand - is the point that jenca describes a shock related >> to an event, and *therefore* "do jenca" implies that you did something >> shocking on the face of it? >> > > No, the point is that things don't shock, some abstraction, usually an > event (although I can imagine how properties (ka) and even possibly ideas > (si'o) could as well), which is /related/ to the thing, is what shocks. > > (The same thing for stunning. /I/ don't stun you, my hand doesn't stun > you, the boxing glove I'm wearing doesn't stun you. It's the event of me > slamming my fist into your face that stuns you.) > > >> If it's the latter, are the other abstraction requirements (and other >> implied types) likewise looser than I imagine? >> > > The vast majority of abstraction places are looser than depicted in that > it may be possible to use an abstraction in that place that isn't in the > list (such as properties for lo jenca), but very few abstraction places can > take a concrete object. > > >> >> Judson >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en >> . >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --e89a8fb1ee6e0c414004d4afd7dc Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And by very few, I mean "I challenge you to find one that doesn't = involve sumti raising".

On Fri, Feb = 1, 2013 at 1:43 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote= :


If it's the latter, are t= he other abstraction requirements (and other implied types) likewise looser= than I imagine?

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=A0
=A0



--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.
.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo= 'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )



--
mu'o = mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi= .luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father= . :D )

--
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