Received: from mail-qa0-f57.google.com ([209.85.216.57]:37211)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban-beginners+bncBDA4JGNARYDBB64QWGEAKGQEM5YOBAA@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1U1PYh-0001kU-Be; Fri, 01 Feb 2013 14:58:18 -0800
Received: by mail-qa0-f57.google.com with SMTP id hg5sf342939qab.2
        for <multiple recipients>; Fri, 01 Feb 2013 14:58:04 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806;
        h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf
         :mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id
         :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results
         :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id
         :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe
         :list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=bW1BaupBDcIzwyyJV0wmOi4DnAOk5R1gkasWXTvQMaY=;
        b=kRnxTt2bAYX2vrNELgl07OQrCAX7wwGUJzRF4q6Rh7EVpK94cOv2a2ZbPLpjmvekX6
         yzK3hFtwM9NnDwki94DiQBvrJ7X6Yr4WcFmOqRnQCx4J3qEtbuPKSZUbqBCbQMECvqAw
         aeNK60PQGDu57OLuwMTMYvvWGzdpWiMWWWPhjQSsmVkiJj4iEhPoFNPKyB3u4OkPh7Nn
         6YTVYZdQx+6oziqCPOFtywCsN/hk8lT3ljlf93Kz2+yoMIlsOGtCGEBzmeU+xKLMsa8D
         2M8gi0hNsIUzc1ACQZIx3uiB58/RzicuUNVd7wfsBqkueiFNtnbsrBOFbpo1Uv3EAOFN
         0rbw==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=20120113;
        h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf
         :mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id
         :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results
         :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id
         :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe
         :list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=bW1BaupBDcIzwyyJV0wmOi4DnAOk5R1gkasWXTvQMaY=;
        b=s0oKh8RKe3TbhnZvRn+o76NWSOoLupMeTHwc3SWXKYzltI/yk20ZzNLXyHKPb1K5nY
         bVoG0TLgcs6+EOO52hDy+FvRFhWCwth3Niuu2vGUMFK6WcInbscWjzxeUdQP0j5Y050S
         OXG59LIuYuuzv5Ay300y+UMo5JIQL2U+tFprTUvoOCo8cVnjujRcrdHo+d73VjO71Zwz
         OmoPbXiZM1q50LhvxrqkzwR1OuNY7HQt4G92modFlbBv++05iKWZUbpCy2YPDoGOiDoz
         +j0kiiCPaCYfvl/lUw9jH5JUboGERT1wNGEs4oJk9HTzuyUTFAAPGQgguek12iZj+G7O
         OKmg==
X-Received: by 10.50.158.227 with SMTP id wx3mr57160igb.2.1359759484308;
        Fri, 01 Feb 2013 14:58:04 -0800 (PST)
X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.50.1.230 with SMTP id 6ls575192igp.15.canary; Fri, 01 Feb 2013
 14:58:03 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 10.42.23.5 with SMTP id q5mr10460104icb.21.1359759483796;
        Fri, 01 Feb 2013 14:58:03 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 10.42.23.5 with SMTP id q5mr10460102icb.21.1359759483774;
        Fri, 01 Feb 2013 14:58:03 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-ob0-f175.google.com (mail-ob0-f175.google.com [209.85.214.175])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ex5si278067igc.1.2013.02.01.14.58.03
        (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128);
        Fri, 01 Feb 2013 14:58:03 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.175 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.175;
Received: by mail-ob0-f175.google.com with SMTP id uz6so4566273obc.6
        for <lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>; Fri, 01 Feb 2013 14:58:03 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.182.42.97 with SMTP id n1mr9851111obl.91.1359759483580; Fri,
 01 Feb 2013 14:58:03 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.60.10.194 with HTTP; Fri, 1 Feb 2013 14:58:03 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <CAOpbp3dCmKwtB56x6r1-1o0uXHg=xUfT80fxz2S1rwnYXqCYig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpbp3duyHETb-Yyqj418hT6BuBRNQi120030UCaRZB2c7=WpQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMKwHj1hF5gEvO-tBjbbNYVAWNgY+4UtbeAcnQy5o8suhhvbcA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOpbp3dCmKwtB56x6r1-1o0uXHg=xUfT80fxz2S1rwnYXqCYig@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 15:58:03 -0700
Message-ID: <CAMKwHj3g2-r2d3H9mntdu7pH8X8a2qptbXs7i-d4TCz+uAzPvA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Place structure "types"
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com;       spf=pass
 (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.175 as
 permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com;       dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban-beginners.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:lojban-beginners+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:googlegroups-manage+300742228892+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=14dae93998ebffaf5004d4b1ac6a
X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.1
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

--14dae93998ebffaf5004d4b1ac6a
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Judson Lester <nyarly@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>  What would be the problem with "do jenca mi"?  I suppose there's some
>>> elided abstraction that I could use in the x1 place to mean "some event
>>> related to you" - but why would that be neccesary?
>>>
>>
>> Simply because the English "You shocked me!" actually means "What you
>> just did shocked me!". This has to do with the issue "sumti raising", which
>> has been bandied about countless times throughout the years.
>>
>
> I've got two follow on questions, then:
>
>
>    1. The easy one: "tu'a do jenca mi" would be semantically valid,
>    though?  Maybe a little vague, but if you've just punched me in the face,
>    maybe clear enough and readier to hand than "le nu do darxi fo le mi flira
>    cu jenca mi"
>
> Yes, that's correct. In fact, the use of tu'a and jai as regards sumti
raising is talked about here: http://dag.github.com/cll/11/10/

>
>    1. More philosophical: granted that it doesn't make *sense* most of
>    the time that do jenca - because people aren't shocking - why isn't the
>    convention that such places raise their sumti automatically?  Or is the
>    idea that maybe there could be a brain-interacting object that fills the
>    space?
>
> Ian answered this one brilliantly, so I'll defer to him.

>
>
> Come to think, would it be reasonable to say something like "lo sidbo
> jenca mi" or would it still need an abstraction related to 'lo nu sidbo fi
> mi' ?  #2 in play as a "why not?" if not.
>

Yes, but you need to close the sumti: {lo sidbo [ku/cu] jenca mi}, else it
parses as "An idea type-of shocker, me", with no selbri at all.


>
> Judson
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>
>
>



-- 
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.



--14dae93998ebffaf5004d4b1ac6a
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Judson Lester <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nyarly@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">n=
yarly@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"im">On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Jonatha=
n Jones <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">eyeonus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"im">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left=
-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>
<span style=3D"font-size:12px;font-family:Arial"></span></div><div><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:12px;font-family:Arial">What would be the problem with &qu=
ot;do jenca mi&quot;? =A0I suppose there&#39;s some elided abstraction that=
 I could use in the x1 place to mean &quot;some event related to you&quot; =
- but why would that be neccesary?</span></div>


</div></blockquote></div><div><br>Simply because the English &quot;You shoc=
ked me!&quot; actually means &quot;What you just did shocked me!&quot;. Thi=
s has to do with the issue &quot;sumti raising&quot;, which has been bandie=
d about countless times throughout the years.</div>

</div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>I&#39;ve got two follow on que=
stions, then:</div><div><br></div><div><ol><li>The easy one: &quot;tu&#39;a=
 do jenca mi&quot; would be semantically valid, though? =A0Maybe a little v=
ague, but if you&#39;ve just punched me in the face, maybe clear enough and=
 readier to hand than &quot;le nu do darxi fo le mi flira cu jenca mi&quot;=
</li>
</ol></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>Yes, that&#39;s correct. In =
fact, the use of tu&#39;a and jai as regards sumti raising is talked about =
here: <a href=3D"http://dag.github.com/cll/11/10/">http://dag.github.com/cl=
l/11/10/</a>=A0</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><ol>
<li>More philosophical: granted that it doesn&#39;t make *sense* most of th=
e time that do jenca - because people aren&#39;t shocking - why isn&#39;t t=
he convention that such places raise their sumti automatically? =A0Or is th=
e idea that maybe there could be a brain-interacting object that fills the =
space?</li>
</ol></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>Ian answered this one brilli=
antly, so I&#39;ll defer to him. <br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><=
div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><ol>
</ol><div>Come to think, would it be reasonable to say something like &quot=
;lo sidbo jenca mi&quot; or would it still need an abstraction related to &=
#39;lo nu sidbo fi mi&#39; ? =A0#2 in play as a &quot;why not?&quot; if not=
.</div>
</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br>Yes, but you need to close th=
e sumti: {lo sidbo [ku/cu] jenca mi}, else it parses as &quot;An idea type-=
of shocker, me&quot;, with no selbri at all.<br>=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div=
><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
<div><br></div><div>Judson</div></font></span></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">

<p></p>

-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;Lojban Beginners&quot; group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban-beginners%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com" =
target=3D"_blank">lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban-beginners@goo=
glegroups.com" target=3D"_blank">lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginn=
ers?hl=3Den" target=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginn=
ers?hl=3Den</a>.<br>
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out=
" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br>
=A0<br>
=A0<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi=
&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l=
uk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. =
:D )<br>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;Lojban Beginners&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.<br =
/>
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginn=
ers?hl=3Den">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den</a>.<b=
r />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out=
">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br />
&nbsp;<br />
&nbsp;<br />

--14dae93998ebffaf5004d4b1ac6a--