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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Mixing tenses
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
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On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 11:50 AM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>wro=
te:

>
>
> On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 8:38 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>wrot=
e:
>
>> While this parses, it's...philosophically subtle at best. I think of {mi=
}
>> and {do} as being temporally nonlocal, which means you can't restrict th=
eir
>> *referent* by specifying a time, since they "exist in many times in the
>> first place. I think if you want to specify a time it should be the time=
 of
>> an event, which is why I suggested the version that I did above. Similar
>> issues ensue with the {me} version.
>>
>
> As you say, that's more a philosophical issue than a linguistic one.
> Presumably you would have the same type of objections to English expresio=
ns
> like "my old self", "the new me",  "you as a teenager", and so on.
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
True, but this "as" issue is a broader one, as has already been noted on
the mriste at least once. If it is to have a solution (which it doesn't),
it should be a general solution, not ad hoc solutions that work in this
context but not that one. Alternately we could have a different way
entirely to look at it, which I think is the more natural approach, but
that's another discussion. To make my point that this is ad hoc, can you
translate "It is bad to eat rice as one's primary source of nutrition" with
{pe}? I also think that solutions like {mi pe pu ku} are strongly informed
by European languages. Are there examples of non-European languages with
similar constructs?

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On W=
ed, May 1, 2013 at 11:50 AM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jjllambias@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"im">On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 a=
t 8:38 PM, Ian Johnson <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:blindbravado=
@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">blindbravado@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<=
br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>While this parses, it&=
#39;s...philosophically subtle at best. I think of {mi} and {do} as being t=
emporally nonlocal, which means you can&#39;t restrict their <i>referent</i=
> by specifying a time, since they &quot;exist in many times in the first p=
lace. I think if you want to specify a time it should be the time of an eve=
nt, which is why I suggested the version that I did above. Similar issues e=
nsue with the {me} version.<br>

</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>As you say, that&#39;s m=
ore a philosophical issue than a linguistic one. Presumably you would have =
the same type of objections to English expresions like &quot;my old self&qu=
ot;, &quot;the new me&quot;, =A0&quot;you as a teenager&quot;, and so on.</=
div>
<div class=3D"im">
<div><br></div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</div></div></div></div></div><=
/blockquote><div>True, but this &quot;as&quot; issue is a broader one, as h=
as already been noted on the mriste at least once. If it is to have a solut=
ion (which it doesn&#39;t), it should be a general solution, not ad hoc sol=
utions that work in this context but not that one. Alternately we could hav=
e a different way entirely to look at it, which I think is the more natural=
 approach, but that&#39;s another discussion. To make my point that this is=
 ad hoc, can you translate &quot;It is bad to eat rice as one&#39;s primary=
 source of nutrition&quot; with {pe}? I also think that solutions like {mi =
pe pu ku} are strongly informed by European languages. Are there examples o=
f non-European languages with similar constructs?<br>
<br>mi&#39;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o<br></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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