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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Mixing tenses
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On Wednesday, May 1, 2013 9:51:30 PM UTC+4, Ian Johnson wrote:
>
> On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 11:50 AM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjlla...@gmail.com<jav=
ascript:>
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 8:38 PM, Ian Johnson <blindb...@gmail.com<javasc=
ript:>
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> While this parses, it's...philosophically subtle at best. I think of=20
>>> {mi} and {do} as being temporally nonlocal, which means you can't restr=
ict=20
>>> their *referent* by specifying a time, since they "exist in many times=
=20
>>> in the first place. I think if you want to specify a time it should be =
the=20
>>> time of an event, which is why I suggested the version that I did above=
.=20
>>> Similar issues ensue with the {me} version.
>>>
>>
>> As you say, that's more a philosophical issue than a linguistic one.=20
>> Presumably you would have the same type of objections to English expresi=
ons=20
>> like "my old self", "the new me",  "you as a teenager", and so on.
>> =20
>> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>>
> True, but this "as" issue is a broader one, as has already been noted on=
=20
> the mriste at least once. If it is to have a solution (which it doesn't),=
=20
> it should be a general solution, not ad hoc solutions that work in this=
=20
> context but not that one. Alternately we could have a different way=20
> entirely to look at it, which I think is the more natural approach, but=
=20
> that's another discussion. To make my point that this is ad hoc, can you=
=20
> translate "It is bad to eat rice as one's primary source of nutrition" wi=
th=20
> {pe}? I also think that solutions like {mi pe pu ku} are strongly informe=
d=20
> by European languages.
>

{lo pu me mi ku}, no? Again the same issue?

Are there examples of non-European languages with similar constructs?
>
> mi'e la latro'a mu'o
>

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<br><br>On Wednesday, May 1, 2013 9:51:30 PM UTC+4, Ian Johnson wrote:<bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-l=
eft: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote">On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 11:50 AM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailt=
o=3D"-AczntuwobQJ">jjlla...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div><br><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote"><div>On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 8:38 PM, Ian Johnson <span dir=3D=
"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=
=3D"-AczntuwobQJ">blindb...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>While this parses, it'=
s...philosophically subtle at best. I think of {mi} and {do} as being tempo=
rally nonlocal, which means you can't restrict their <i>referent</i> by spe=
cifying a time, since they "exist in many times in the first place. I think=
 if you want to specify a time it should be the time of an event, which is =
why I suggested the version that I did above. Similar issues ensue with the=
 {me} version.<br>

</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>As you say, that's more =
a philosophical issue than a linguistic one. Presumably you would have the =
same type of objections to English expresions like "my old self", "the new =
me", &nbsp;"you as a teenager", and so on.</div>
<div>
<div><br></div><div>mu'o mi'e xorxes</div></div></div></div></div></blockqu=
ote><div>True, but this "as" issue is a broader one, as has already been no=
ted on the mriste at least once. If it is to have a solution (which it does=
n't), it should be a general solution, not ad hoc solutions that work in th=
is context but not that one. Alternately we could have a different way enti=
rely to look at it, which I think is the more natural approach, but that's =
another discussion. To make my point that this is ad hoc, can you translate=
 "It is bad to eat rice as one's primary source of nutrition" with {pe}? I =
also think that solutions like {mi pe pu ku} are strongly informed by Europ=
ean languages.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>{lo =
pu me mi ku}, no? Again the same issue?</div><div><br></div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><div> Are there examples of non-European languages with similar constru=
cts?<br>
<br>mi'e la latro'a mu'o<br></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote>

<p></p>

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