On M= on, May 20, 2013 at 7:28 PM, selpa'i <m3o@plasmatix.com>= wrote:

On 21.05.2013 00:24, Ian= Johnson wrote:

On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 6:12 PM, v4hn <me@v4hn.de> wrote:

On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 05:49:08PM -0400, Ian Johnson wrote:
> On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 5:40 PM, v4hn <me@v4hn.de> wrote:
> > {pa le karci} or {pa karci} (if a number preceeds the bridi you d= on't necessarily
> > need an article, you can think about this as {pa lo karci}) can b= e used
> > for that, an inner quantifier is not needed here.
>
> {pa karce} is rather unlikely to mean what you want. In particular it = does
> *NOT* mean the same as {pa lo karce}. Instead it actually means exactl= y
> what {pa lo karce} meant before xorlo was implemented, that is "t= here
> exists exactly one car such that ..."

Agreed, I never use that and got confused when reading

lo with an outer quantifier, which is exactly the same thing
as just sticking a number before an item (i.e. "mu lo bakni" =3D= =3D "mu bakni"
=3D=3D "five cows), works pretty much as before: "five things tha= t really are cows".

at http://www.lojban.org/tiki/How+to+use+xorlo [1] . Someone migh= t want to rephrase that.

mi'e la .van. mu'o

Oh wow, that's not good at all, that's completely inconsistent with=
the formal definition in the proposal proper...

That's exactly the part that got changed in December 2011, when the sen= tence "When an outer quantifier is used without an inner quantifier, &= #39;'lo'' can be omitted." was removed. This means that &q= uot;PA broda =3D PA lo broda" *was* part of the original BPFK-approved= proposal from '04. (the recent change wasn't followed by another r= ound of voting of course)

In any case, I don't think there is *such* a big difference between PA = broda and PA lo broda. Both make claims about instances that broda, and nei= ther of them select in-mind referents. It probably depends on one's con= ceptualization of lo broda.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

I think it's a marked= difference no matter how you think of lo and da--{lo} definitely allows fo= r referents to be in the universe of discourse and not selected, whereas {d= a} does not. That is, {PA lo broda} takes exactly PA things from {lo broda}= , which might be quite small compared to the whole UD worth of brodas. {PA = broda} takes exactly PA things from the entire UD worth of brodas. This is = already far too technical for the beginners list though.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o