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On Monday, May 20, 2013 9:42:57 PM UTC+4, tjerk wrote:
>
> I'm interested in lojban. I hope to state complicated meanings very 
> clearly using lojban,
> and without the need for further clarifications as is common in natural 
> languages.
>
> A son of mine has dyslexia, and I read that languages in which each letter 
> can only
> be pronounced in one way is much easier for dyslectics to read. Sounds 
> very plausible.
> Finnish could help then. But lojban also. Further, language is really his 
> thing. He began
> to speak very young and he makes quite complicated grammatical 
> constructions. And generally
> knows the effect on meaning changing places of words have. lojban could 
> help him to
> transfer his ability in spoken language to written language. And I hope we 
> can have some
> fun together learning it.
>
> So far for my motivation. I have some questions and remarks about lojban.
>
> 1. 
> 'mi' in lojban means I and also we. So, here lojban is more ambiguous than 
> english. But
> lojban is supposed to be less ambiguous than english. Lojban has another 3 
> words for we,
> meaning: me and you, you and others, me and others and not you. So 'mi' 
> could have been
> reserved for I without losing expressiveness.
> I suppose this thing of lojban is because lojban leaves number open by 
> default. 'le karci'
> means the car or the cars. Does 'le pa karci' mean the car and only that, 
> so not the cars?
> If so, does 'pa mi' mean I and not we?
> Why is there no article in lojban that means exactly one of something?
>
2.
> Tense is also open by default in lojban. So 'mi klama le zarci' can mean I 
> go to the market,
> and it can mean I went to the market, and it can mean I will go the 
> market. So this is again
> more ambiguous than english. Of course there are words to specify the 
> time, but why is
> present tense not the default? Minimizing guessing using context is one of 
> the main goals of
> lojban, not?
>

Well, the fact is that many languages have no default tense or number.
Lojban fully follows the principle of facultative precision: the fewer 
words you say, the more vague your speech becomes.
Languages that are very precise are probably impossible to speak. Nobody 
needs a language that forces you to always pay attention to tiny details.
E.g. speakers of Chinese often wonder why English burdens the speakers with 
so many tiny details that you *HAVE* to express:

I've been going to the market.
I will have gone to the market

...
and so on.

So no, minimising guessing is not the goal of lojban or any sane language.
What is really powerful in Lojban is that you MAY (in accordance with your 
desire) increase or decrease the precision of your speech to the level that 
you need exactly in this case.

In Chinese there is no default tense and most of the time Chinese speakers 
use no tense at all! A billion people speak this and find no problems!
But if you want to talk like in English you may add additional markers:
ca = present tense
ca'o = continuous
ba'o = perfect
and so on.

Now look at the sentence: "In this picture the author has shown how three 
girls are going to the library". Now in what tense should we put the verb 
"to go"?
When they were going to the library? At the moment when the author drew the 
picture. At the moment when the author had watch real girls in real world 
going to the library? Or may be they are going when *you* are watching the 
picture?
In fact making "present" the default tense here would be incorrect.

As for numbers

a. You can say that {karce} is a verb that means "to be a car".
b. Then {le} or {lo} transforms this verb into a noun.
c. Next you add a number and specify the number using e.g. {pa}: {lo pa 
karce} = one car.

Actually Chinese has no numbers by default!
Of course as Lojban is a universal language it is able to reflect features 
of other languages. Isn't that great?

The same for {mi}. If you have an alternating personality what would you 
describe yourself? Is it {pa mi} or {za'u mi} (i.e. in plural)?
Isn't it better just to say {mi}? So such vague meaning of mi is highly 
useful and can be made more precise on demand using additional words.


> 3.
> In lojban the predicate(selbri) can be put everywhere in a sentence, 
> except at the best
> place, the begin. That is the normal place for a function. And a selbri is 
> a kind of
> function. 'fa' has to be used to be able to put the selbri at the begin: 
> klama fa mi le
> zarci. Maybe another cmavo also works. 
> Where did it go wrong? Trying to resemble the SVO structure of english?
>

Yes,  trying to resemble the structure of most spoken languages in the 
world including English and Chinese.
However, if the language that you love has VSO or any other structure you 
are welcome to always use FA.


> 4.
> The main effect the place structure grammar of lojban seems to have is 
> elimination of
> prepositions. I have my doubts about this. For example, compare 'I go to 
> the market' and 'I
> talk to you'. Very different things are happening, but there is also 
> similarity. There is
> a destination in both, and that is why to is used in both cases.
>

Yes, there is similarity  but in *English*.  E.g. in Russian instead of 
"talk to somebody" we say "talk with somebody".
So which language should we try to emulate? Isn't it better to translate 
the meaning of the text and not individual words?

However, there is indeed similarity between those two meanings of the word 
"to".
This is a metaphor. Talk is about transmitting information in words.
Going is about moving physical objects like your own body.

You can talk metaphorically in lojban to reproduce features of specific 
languages.
In this case you might want to use {fa'a} (towards) of {ka'a} of {tebe'i}. 
Also  you would probably want to add {pe'a} maker to indicte that the 
sentence is metaphorical.


In the place structure grammar of lojban a place has no meaning on its own 
> (although 1st
> place is maybe always the subject). If a predicate has an argument for 
> some sort of
> destination you have to look up its place for the predicate, and also 
> remember that place.
> Remembering a preposition for notating destination for each predicate 
> seems simpler. 
>

Given that such prepositions are rather arbitrary in different language it 
might appear to be even harder.


mu'o

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------=_Part_5239_33422545.1369115714969
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<br><br>On Monday, May 20, 2013 9:42:57 PM UTC+4, tjerk wrote:<blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">I'm interested in lojban. I hope to state c=
omplicated meanings very clearly using lojban,<br>and without the need for =
further clarifications as is common in natural languages.<br><br>A son of m=
ine has dyslexia, and I read that languages in which each letter can only<b=
r>be pronounced in one way is much easier for dyslectics to read. Sounds ve=
ry plausible.<br>Finnish could help then. But lojban also. Further, languag=
e is really his thing. He began<br>to speak very young and he makes quite c=
omplicated grammatical constructions. And generally<br>knows the effect on =
meaning changing places of words have. lojban could help him to<br>transfer=
 his ability in spoken language to written language. And I hope we can have=
 some<br>fun together learning it.<br><br>So far for my motivation. I have =
some questions and remarks about lojban.<br><br>1. <br>'mi' in lojban means=
 I and also we. So, here lojban is more ambiguous than english. But<br>lojb=
an is supposed to be less ambiguous than english. Lojban has another 3 word=
s for we,<br>meaning: me and you, you and others, me and others and not you=
. So 'mi' could have been<br>reserved for I without losing expressiveness.<=
br>I suppose this thing of lojban is because lojban leaves number open by d=
efault. 'le karci'<br>means the car or the cars. Does 'le pa karci' mean th=
e car and only that, so not the cars?<br>If so, does 'pa mi' mean I and not=
 we?<br>Why is there no article in lojban that means exactly one of somethi=
ng?<br></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;ma=
rgin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">2.<br>Tens=
e is also open by default in lojban. So 'mi klama le zarci' can mean I go t=
o the market,<br>and it can mean I went to the market, and it can mean I wi=
ll go the market. So this is again<br>more ambiguous than english. Of cours=
e there are words to specify the time, but why is<br>present tense not the =
default? Minimizing guessing using context is one of the main goals of<br>l=
ojban, not?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Well, the fact is that many=
 languages have no default tense or number.</div><div>Lojban fully follows =
the principle of facultative precision: the fewer words you say, the more v=
ague your speech becomes.</div><div>Languages that are very precise are pro=
bably impossible to speak. Nobody needs a language that forces you to alway=
s pay attention to tiny details.</div><div>E.g. speakers of Chinese often w=
onder why English burdens the speakers with so many tiny details that you *=
HAVE* to express:</div><div><br></div><div>I've been going to the market.</=
div><div>I will have gone to the market</div><div><br></div><div>...</div><=
div>and so on.</div><div><br></div><div>So no, minimising guessing is not t=
he goal of lojban or any sane language.</div><div>What is really powerful i=
n Lojban is that you MAY (in accordance with your desire) increase or decre=
ase the precision of your speech to the level that you need exactly in this=
 case.</div><div><br></div><div>In Chinese there is no default tense and mo=
st of the time Chinese speakers use no tense at all! A billion people speak=
 this and find no problems!</div><div>But if you want to talk like in Engli=
sh you may add additional markers:</div><div>ca =3D present tense</div><div=
>ca'o =3D continuous</div><div>ba'o =3D perfect</div><div>and so on.</div><=
div><br></div><div>Now look at the sentence: "In this picture the author ha=
s shown how three girls are going to the library". Now in what tense should=
 we put the verb "to go"?</div><div>When they were going to the library? At=
 the moment when the author drew the picture. At the moment when the author=
 had watch real girls in real world going to the library? Or may be they ar=
e going when *you* are watching the picture?</div><div>In fact making "pres=
ent" the default tense here would be incorrect.</div><div><br></div><div>As=
 for numbers<br></div><div><br></div><div>a. You can say that {karce} is a =
verb that means "to be a car".</div><div>b. Then {le} or {lo} transforms th=
is verb into a noun.</div><div>c. Next you add a number and specify the num=
ber using e.g. {pa}: {lo pa karce} =3D one car.</div><div><br></div><div>Ac=
tually Chinese has no numbers by default!</div><div>Of course as Lojban is =
a universal language it is able to reflect features of other languages. Isn=
't that great?</div><div><br></div><div>The same for {mi}. If you have an a=
lternating personality what would you describe yourself? Is it {pa mi} or {=
za'u mi} (i.e. in plural)?</div><div>Isn't it better just to say {mi}? So s=
uch vague meaning of mi is highly useful and can be made more precise on de=
mand using additional words.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left: 1ex;"><br>3.<br>In lojban the predicate(selbri) can be put eve=
rywhere in a sentence, except at the best<br>place, the begin. That is the =
normal place for a function. And a selbri is a kind of<br>function. 'fa' ha=
s to be used to be able to put the selbri at the begin: klama fa mi le<br>z=
arci. Maybe another cmavo also works. <br>Where did it go wrong? Trying to =
resemble the SVO structure of english?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>=
Yes, &nbsp;trying to resemble the structure of most spoken languages in the=
 world including English and Chinese.</div><div>However, if the language th=
at you love has VSO or any other structure you are welcome to always use FA=
.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;=
margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><br>4.<b=
r>The main effect the place structure grammar of lojban seems to have is el=
imination of<br>prepositions. I have my doubts about this. For example, com=
pare 'I go to the market' and 'I<br>talk to you'. Very different things are=
 happening, but there is also similarity. There is<br>a destination in both=
, and that is why to is used in both cases.<br></blockquote><div><br></div>=
<div>Yes, there is similarity &nbsp;but in *English*. &nbsp;E.g. in Russian=
 instead of "talk to somebody" we say "talk with somebody".</div><div>So wh=
ich language should we try to emulate? Isn't it better to translate the mea=
ning of the text and not individual words?</div><div><br></div><div>However=
, there is indeed similarity between those two meanings of the word "to".</=
div><div>This is a metaphor. Talk is about transmitting information in word=
s.</div><div>Going is about moving physical objects like your own body.</di=
v><div><br></div><div>You can talk metaphorically in lojban to reproduce fe=
atures of specific languages.</div><div>In this case you might want to use =
{fa'a} (towards) of {ka'a} of {tebe'i}. Also &nbsp;you would probably want =
to add {pe'a} maker to indicte that the sentence is metaphorical.</div><div=
><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">In t=
he place structure grammar of lojban a place has no meaning on its own (alt=
hough 1st<br>place is maybe always the subject). If a predicate has an argu=
ment for some sort of<br>destination you have to look up its place for the =
predicate, and also remember that place.<br><div>Remembering a preposition =
for notating destination for each predicate seems simpler. <br></div></bloc=
kquote><div><br></div><div>Given that such prepositions are rather arbitrar=
y in different language it might appear to be even harder.</div><div><br></=
div><div><br></div><div>mu'o</div>

<p></p>

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