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Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 21:30:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: ".iuROK." <yurock.tengo@gmail.com>
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Subject: [lojban-beginners] .e'o ko pe'u
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coi

{ko} is used in Lojban where imperative mood would be used in other 
languages. The imperative mood is used to communicate:
* commands;
* requests;
* permissions;
* prohibitions;
* advices;
* maybe other things too.
Of those uses, I think, commands and prohibitions assume listener's 
obligation to comply; others do not.

In Lojban, using {ko} (or experimental {ko'oi}) is THE method of 
constructing "imperatives". For me, bare {ko broda} does not carry a 
connotation of listener's obligation or subordination; it can be a request, 
a permission, an advice, etc. A "connotation" MAY be conveyed by additional 
words:
.i .ei dai ko klama
.i ko sidju mi pe'u
.i .e'a ko zutse
.i .e'u ko sisku
But default connotation should be unspecified.

However, publications do not adree with my point of view.
Lojban For Beginners suggests that bare {ko broda} is not polite in a 
typical situation: 
http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/less3soften.html
CLL calls {ko}-sentences "commands": http://dag.github.io/cll/7/2/

So, what is your point of view?

There are also words {.e'o} and {pe'u}. They are normally used in 
conjunction with {ko}. But what if they are used without {ko}? Is the 
resulting bridi a proposition or not?

http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+Irrealis+Attitudinals
In this proposal {.e'o do dunda le silna mi} is translated as "Can you pass 
me the salt, please?", which suggests that {.e'o broda} is a request, NOT a 
proposition. (Also, that example uses {dunda} in a sense of "pass", "hand"; 
not "give a gift" as defined in the gusmu list.)

I would prefer having only {ko} as the "magic word" that turns a bridi into 
a request. Then I would interpret {.e'o broda} as a "weak" proposition with 
a "connotation" of request. For example, consider a sign {le vi tanxe ku 
kunti .e'o}.
Denotation: "this box should be empty".
Connotation: "don't put stuff here".
The same to {pe'u}.

And what is your opinion on {.e'o broda}?

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coi<br><br>{ko} is used in Lojban where imperative mood would be used in ot=
her languages. The imperative mood is used to communicate:<br>* commands;<b=
r>* requests;<br>* permissions;<br>* prohibitions;<br>* advices;<br>* maybe=
 other things too.<br>Of those uses, I think, commands and prohibitions ass=
ume listener's obligation to comply; others do not.<br><br>In Lojban, using=
 {ko} (or experimental {ko'oi}) is THE method of constructing "imperatives"=
. For me, bare {ko broda} does not carry a connotation of listener's obliga=
tion or subordination; it can be a request, a permission, an advice, etc. A=
 "connotation" MAY be conveyed by additional words:<br>.i .ei dai ko klama<=
br>.i ko sidju mi pe'u<br>.i .e'a ko zutse<br>.i .e'u ko sisku<br>But defau=
lt connotation should be unspecified.<br><br>However, publications do not a=
dree with my point of view.<br>Lojban For Beginners suggests that bare {ko =
broda} is not polite in a typical situation: http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudj=
is/lojbanbrochure/lessons/less3soften.html<br>CLL calls {ko}-sentences "com=
mands": http://dag.github.io/cll/7/2/<br><br>So, what is your point of view=
?<br><br>There are also words {.e'o} and {pe'u}. They are normally used in =
conjunction with {ko}. But what if they are used without {ko}? Is the resul=
ting bridi a proposition or not?<br><br>http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Sec=
tion%3A+Irrealis+Attitudinals<br>In this proposal {.e'o do dunda le silna m=
i} is translated as "Can you pass me the salt, please?", which suggests tha=
t {.e'o broda} is a request, NOT a proposition. (Also, that example uses {d=
unda} in a sense of "pass", "hand"; not "give a gift" as defined in the gus=
mu list.)<br><br>I would prefer having only {ko} as the "magic word" that t=
urns a bridi into a request. Then I would interpret {.e'o broda} as a "weak=
" proposition with a "connotation" of request. For example, consider a sign=
 {le vi tanxe ku kunti .e'o}.<br>Denotation: "this box should be empty".<br=
>Connotation: "don't put stuff here".<br>The same to {pe'u}.<br><br>And wha=
t is your opinion on {.e'o broda}?

<p></p>

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