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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Mixing tenses
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
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  I can't even figure out why this parses.  "mi pe ca" seems to be missing
a sumti. (And, okay, I see, by looking at the formal grammar, that GOI are
followed by a term, and "term" includes tag(+KU), which includes "ca", but
I guess my question is "why can GOI be followed by any term, and not solely
by a sumti? What does it even mean, exactly? Exactly for the type of
example you have here? "lo gerku ne ri'u cu blabi" ("The dog, which is on
the right, is white"?) Although that makes things like like "la maik goi
fa'a cu damva'u" parseable but unfathomable (I mean, okay, there at least
an aleph-null amount of utterances that are parseable as well as
unfathomable, but this just seems to be fundamentally weird, although it
does allow tags on non-brivla-based sumti (KOhA, ZO+valsi, LA+cmevla, etc),
which wouldn't otherwise be possible, which I guess directly relates to the
original question.

   Gee, I've come around 180 degrees from my first impression.  I guess it
IS a pretty good thing.  Wish it had been mentioned in the CLL, though,
which I don't see.

                 --gejyspa



On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 7:38 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote=
:

> While this parses, it's...philosophically subtle at best. I think of {mi}
> and {do} as being temporally nonlocal, which means you can't restrict the=
ir
> *referent* by specifying a time, since they "exist in many times in the
> first place. I think if you want to specify a time it should be the time =
of
> an event, which is why I suggested the version that I did above. Similar
> issues ensue with the {me} version.
>
> mi'e la latro'a mu'o
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 7:04 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>w=
rote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 5:46 PM, mudri <jammyatjammy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Say, {mi} and {do}, respectively.
>>>
>>>
>> You could say "mi pe ca cu zmadu do pe pu ku lo ka ..."
>>
>> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>>
>>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">=A0 I can&#39;t even figure out why this parses. =A0&quot;=
mi pe ca&quot; seems to be missing a sumti. (And, okay, I see, by looking a=
t the formal grammar, that GOI are followed by a term, and &quot;term&quot;=
 includes tag(+KU), which includes &quot;ca&quot;, but I guess my question =
is &quot;why can GOI be followed by any term, and not solely by a sumti? Wh=
at does it even mean, exactly? Exactly for the type of example you have her=
e? &quot;lo gerku ne ri&#39;u cu blabi&quot; (&quot;The dog, which is on th=
e right, is white&quot;?) Although that makes things like like &quot;la mai=
k goi fa&#39;a cu damva&#39;u&quot; parseable but unfathomable (I mean, oka=
y, there at least an aleph-null amount of utterances that are parseable as =
well as unfathomable, but this just seems to be fundamentally weird, althou=
gh it does allow tags on non-brivla-based sumti (KOhA, ZO+valsi, LA+cmevla,=
 etc), which wouldn&#39;t otherwise be possible, which I guess directly rel=
ates to the original question.<div>
<br></div><div>=A0 =A0Gee, I&#39;ve come around 180 degrees from my first i=
mpression. =A0I guess it IS a pretty good thing. =A0Wish it had been mentio=
ned in the CLL,=A0though, which I don&#39;t see.</div><div><br></div><div>=
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa</div>
<div><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On M=
on, Apr 29, 2013 at 7:38 PM, Ian Johnson <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:blindbravado@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">blindbravado@gmail.com</a>&=
gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>While this parses, it&=
#39;s...philosophically subtle at best. I think of {mi} and {do} as being t=
emporally nonlocal, which means you can&#39;t restrict their <i>referent</i=
> by specifying a time, since they &quot;exist in many times in the first p=
lace. I think if you want to specify a time it should be the time of an eve=
nt, which is why I suggested the version that I did above. Similar issues e=
nsue with the {me} version.<br>

<br></div><div class=3D"im">mi&#39;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o<br></div></div=
><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 7:04 PM, Jorge Llamb=ED=
as <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com" target=3D"=
_blank">jjllambias@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 5:46 PM=
, mudri <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jammyatjammy@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">jammyatjammy@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>


<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Say, {mi} and {do}, respectively.<div><div><=
br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>
You could say &quot;mi pe ca cu zmadu do pe pu ku lo ka ...&quot;</div><div=
><br></div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes=A0</div><div><br></div></div></div=
></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div>
</div>

<p></p>

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