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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Mixing tenses
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I think, {lo ca broda cu zmadu lo pu brode} does not say what you want to 
say.

The point of sumti is that they represent some referents. For simplicity, I 
will use sumti that have exactly one referent each. Usually a sumti reveals 
some information about its referent, so, using that information, the 
listener can correctly guess the referent of each sumti. For example, {lo 
blabi ku} says that the referent is white. That information, however, does 
not have a direct relation to the truth value of the main bridi, which the 
sumti is a part of. It does not matter how we refer, only what we refer to.

Let's consider an example: {lo pu verba ku ca ciska dei}. In {pu verba}, 
{pu} is a part of the selbri. {lo pu verba ku} says that the referent was a 
child. It does not say anything about the state the referent is at the time 
of the main bridi, which is now. Maybe he is still a child, maybe not. So, 
{lo pu verba ku ca ciska dei} does not say that a child writes the 
sentence. Actually, I wrote the sentence, so the writer is an adult; but 
some time ago he was a child, for sure.

Back to your example, I would interpret it as "something that is/does broda 
exceeds something that was/did brode". If you put a time tense into the 
main bridi, I will take it as if comparison of both objects happen at that 
time, regardless of tenses of inner selbri.

{do pe pu} will not work either, if you talk to one person. If base sumti 
has exactly one referent, no relative clause can change that referent; and 
in the aspect of zmadu3, {do pe pu} will be exactly the same as {do}... Or 
I may be terribly wrong in this regard, and {pe pu} magically sends your 
listener to the past. :D

I think, what we need is a reference not to the object itself, but to a 
state of that object at a certain point in time. A natural tool for that 
task is abstraction. So, {lo ni ko'a ca brodi cu zmadu lo ni ko'e pu brodi} 
does work. But

> {lo ni ko'a [ca] broda cu zmadu lo ni ko'e pu brode}
>
does not, unless {broda} and {brode} are the same. Maybe it's a typo. And 
by the way, to make the intended sense, not only "types" should match, but 
scales. For a more explicit version:
{lo ni ko'a ca brodi kei be zu'i goi ko'i cu zmadu lo ni ko'e pu brodi kei 
be ko'i lo ka ce'u barda}
Since zmadu1 and zmadu2 are numbers in this case, zmadu3 should be "is 
big". The original property that we compare {ka ce'u brodi} goes inside {ni 
... kei}, and {ko'i} is some typical scale to measure brodi-ness.

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I think, {lo ca broda cu zmadu lo pu brode} does not say what you want to s=
ay.<br><br>The point of sumti is that they represent some referents. For si=
mplicity, I will use sumti that have exactly one referent each. Usually a s=
umti reveals some information about its referent, so, using that informatio=
n, the listener can correctly guess the referent of each sumti. For example=
, {lo blabi ku} says that the referent is white. That information, however,=
 does not have a direct relation to the truth value of the main bridi, whic=
h the sumti is a part of. It does not matter how we refer, only what we ref=
er to.<br><br>Let's consider an example: {lo pu verba ku ca ciska dei}. In =
{pu verba}, {pu} is a part of the selbri. {lo pu verba ku} says that the re=
ferent was a child. It does not say anything about the state the referent i=
s at the time of the main bridi, which is now. Maybe he is still a child, m=
aybe not. So, {lo pu verba ku ca ciska dei} does not say that a child write=
s the sentence. Actually, I wrote the sentence, so the writer is an adult; =
but some time ago he was a child, for sure.<br><br>Back to your example, I =
would interpret it as "something that is/does broda exceeds something that =
was/did brode". If you put a time tense into the main bridi, I will take it=
 as if comparison of both objects happen at that time, regardless of tenses=
 of inner selbri.<br><br>{do pe pu} will not work either, if you talk to on=
e person. If base sumti has exactly one referent, no relative clause can ch=
ange that referent; and in the aspect of zmadu3, {do pe pu} will be exactly=
 the same as {do}... Or I may be terribly wrong in this regard, and {pe pu}=
 magically sends your listener to the past. :D<br><br>I think, what we need=
 is a reference not to the object itself, but to a state of that object at =
a certain point in time. A natural tool for that task is abstraction. So, {=
lo ni ko'a ca brodi cu zmadu lo ni ko'e pu brodi} does work. But<br><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-lef=
t: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr">{lo ni ko'a [ca] bro=
da cu zmadu lo ni ko'e pu brode}<br></div></blockquote><div>does not, unles=
s {broda} and {brode} are the same. Maybe it's a typo.=20
And by the way, to make the intended sense, not only "types" should=20
match, but scales. For a more explicit version:<br>{lo ni ko'a ca brodi kei
 be zu'i goi ko'i cu zmadu lo ni ko'e pu brodi kei be ko'i lo ka ce'u=20
barda}<br>Since zmadu1 and zmadu2 are numbers in this case, zmadu3 should=
=20
be "is big". The original property that we compare {ka ce'u brodi} goes=20
inside {ni ... kei}, and {ko'i} is some typical scale to measure brodi-ness=
.</div><div></div>

<p></p>

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