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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Mixing tenses
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I was under the impression that {lo vi broda} refers to the nearby broda, 
and hence {lo pu broda} refers to the past broda in the same way. 
Otherwise, {lo vi broda} would refer to something that is a broda on the 
condition that it is close, and could morph into something else if it 
happens to be somewhere else. I don't think that's the desired meaning.

On Thursday, May 30, 2013 12:31:45 AM UTC+1, .iuROK. wrote:
>
> I think, {lo ca broda cu zmadu lo pu brode} does not say what you want to 
> say.
>
> The point of sumti is that they represent some referents. For simplicity, 
> I will use sumti that have exactly one referent each. Usually a sumti 
> reveals some information about its referent, so, using that information, 
> the listener can correctly guess the referent of each sumti. For example, 
> {lo blabi ku} says that the referent is white. That information, however, 
> does not have a direct relation to the truth value of the main bridi, which 
> the sumti is a part of. It does not matter how we refer, only what we refer 
> to.
>
> Let's consider an example: {lo pu verba ku ca ciska dei}. In {pu verba}, 
> {pu} is a part of the selbri. {lo pu verba ku} says that the referent was a 
> child. It does not say anything about the state the referent is at the time 
> of the main bridi, which is now. Maybe he is still a child, maybe not. So, 
> {lo pu verba ku ca ciska dei} does not say that a child writes the 
> sentence. Actually, I wrote the sentence, so the writer is an adult; but 
> some time ago he was a child, for sure.
>
> Back to your example, I would interpret it as "something that is/does 
> broda exceeds something that was/did brode". If you put a time tense into 
> the main bridi, I will take it as if comparison of both objects happen at 
> that time, regardless of tenses of inner selbri.
>
> {do pe pu} will not work either, if you talk to one person. If base sumti 
> has exactly one referent, no relative clause can change that referent; and 
> in the aspect of zmadu3, {do pe pu} will be exactly the same as {do}... Or 
> I may be terribly wrong in this regard, and {pe pu} magically sends your 
> listener to the past. :D
>
> I think, what we need is a reference not to the object itself, but to a 
> state of that object at a certain point in time. A natural tool for that 
> task is abstraction. So, {lo ni ko'a ca brodi cu zmadu lo ni ko'e pu brodi} 
> does work. But
>
>> {lo ni ko'a [ca] broda cu zmadu lo ni ko'e pu brode}
>>
> does not, unless {broda} and {brode} are the same. Maybe it's a typo. And 
> by the way, to make the intended sense, not only "types" should match, but 
> scales. For a more explicit version:
> {lo ni ko'a ca brodi kei be zu'i goi ko'i cu zmadu lo ni ko'e pu brodi kei 
> be ko'i lo ka ce'u barda}
> Since zmadu1 and zmadu2 are numbers in this case, zmadu3 should be "is 
> big". The original property that we compare {ka ce'u brodi} goes inside {ni 
> ... kei}, and {ko'i} is some typical scale to measure brodi-ness.
>

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I was under the impression that {lo vi broda} refers to the nearby broda, a=
nd hence {lo pu broda} refers to the past broda in the same way. Otherwise,=
 {lo vi broda} would refer to something that is a broda on the condition th=
at it is close, and could morph into something else if it happens to be som=
ewhere else. I don't think that's the desired meaning.<br><br>On Thursday, =
May 30, 2013 12:31:45 AM UTC+1, .iuROK. wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left: 1ex;">I think, {lo ca broda cu zmadu lo pu brode} does not say wh=
at you want to say.<br><br>The point of sumti is that they represent some r=
eferents. For simplicity, I will use sumti that have exactly one referent e=
ach. Usually a sumti reveals some information about its referent, so, using=
 that information, the listener can correctly guess the referent of each su=
mti. For example, {lo blabi ku} says that the referent is white. That infor=
mation, however, does not have a direct relation to the truth value of the =
main bridi, which the sumti is a part of. It does not matter how we refer, =
only what we refer to.<br><br>Let's consider an example: {lo pu verba ku ca=
 ciska dei}. In {pu verba}, {pu} is a part of the selbri. {lo pu verba ku} =
says that the referent was a child. It does not say anything about the stat=
e the referent is at the time of the main bridi, which is now. Maybe he is =
still a child, maybe not. So, {lo pu verba ku ca ciska dei} does not say th=
at a child writes the sentence. Actually, I wrote the sentence, so the writ=
er is an adult; but some time ago he was a child, for sure.<br><br>Back to =
your example, I would interpret it as "something that is/does broda exceeds=
 something that was/did brode". If you put a time tense into the main bridi=
, I will take it as if comparison of both objects happen at that time, rega=
rdless of tenses of inner selbri.<br><br>{do pe pu} will not work either, i=
f you talk to one person. If base sumti has exactly one referent, no relati=
ve clause can change that referent; and in the aspect of zmadu3, {do pe pu}=
 will be exactly the same as {do}... Or I may be terribly wrong in this reg=
ard, and {pe pu} magically sends your listener to the past. :D<br><br>I thi=
nk, what we need is a reference not to the object itself, but to a state of=
 that object at a certain point in time. A natural tool for that task is ab=
straction. So, {lo ni ko'a ca brodi cu zmadu lo ni ko'e pu brodi} does work=
. But<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">{lo ni ko=
'a [ca] broda cu zmadu lo ni ko'e pu brode}<br></div></blockquote><div>does=
 not, unless {broda} and {brode} are the same. Maybe it's a typo.=20
And by the way, to make the intended sense, not only "types" should=20
match, but scales. For a more explicit version:<br>{lo ni ko'a ca brodi kei
 be zu'i goi ko'i cu zmadu lo ni ko'e pu brodi kei be ko'i lo ka ce'u=20
barda}<br>Since zmadu1 and zmadu2 are numbers in this case, zmadu3 should=
=20
be "is big". The original property that we compare {ka ce'u brodi} goes=20
inside {ni ... kei}, and {ko'i} is some typical scale to measure brodi-ness=
.</div><div></div></blockquote>

<p></p>

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