Received: from mail-vc0-f187.google.com ([209.85.220.187]:48950) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Ui3yb-0000gU-PA; Thu, 30 May 2013 07:37:16 -0700 Received: by mail-vc0-f187.google.com with SMTP id gf11sf109843vcb.4 for ; Thu, 30 May 2013 07:37:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=yiZqu8SPbsA9XMrQlyEkpUsWfXaZpRulY9wyunHShfw=; b=arvGHLtPpPTFzFUUDlnBlxAjbvTo/T395hUnwqnIuFAYPh6BJrayhFyX1mAeuhgT+u 8jBXTf9VN3ZuCG5HCvUwKLnvXVvBUpzXP93MOuJXOiIJZ6a7VDz3lKBuaxGG36Kcn6ek 8L5n+NKzC4it9Hb+ZSkH0V5KqADANppB/5EGrmNRmdPlsvtf6skPpFv861inX0LD2SvB ZP2OjHwteUoUt7205CfV6VIEYy4+nJpCPGix2KDWc6E24OKzb7SKvi70u8g4UGph4cl+ hVBD7db20ux3oWURPK9pet+UnePDEURkuf119CqYgVghBHo7idPVbKBKiuq2z9PXiqCO JBuw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=yiZqu8SPbsA9XMrQlyEkpUsWfXaZpRulY9wyunHShfw=; b=UqWN//uhc3wqFREaEOcRkLMmanP4biaqCBn93oZbQgqxAVpO/RobdIsgx57neKo9Tp gWtblQeCRvxwCOcIikxveZh7mMefHMwJFvQkDWGTBASEfvmnDvAAwZ9oqLdz3xq+Robk XkD57hnS9X3vUpryWjTAxPLIl4JEdhQOQtaXrQ6irXrjYvKKQyLA4GSwKKGrAsXtzkNA CVGi82Pu34hin1fiqcVL0L87A3iAbjktcuUUei+qA2H+EMWj87LLiciPZ1vrzZF/COwP cmcQ3PeBNqZZieG/my8/39ldFTvmBH+L9RNytTNOaLC1QOXFrCxop+Ya0IsMtcP93csk QU4A== X-Received: by 10.49.106.231 with SMTP id gx7mr625013qeb.6.1369924626492; Thu, 30 May 2013 07:37:06 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.96.35 with SMTP id dp3ls470524qeb.87.gmail; Thu, 30 May 2013 07:37:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.49.30.105 with SMTP id r9mr624899qeh.27.1369924624899; Thu, 30 May 2013 07:37:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 07:37:04 -0700 (PDT) From: ".iuROK." To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Cc: yurock.tengo@gmail.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <0f0119da-ccac-457c-8f5f-48f546dc1c15@googlegroups.com> References: <0f0119da-ccac-457c-8f5f-48f546dc1c15@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Mixing tenses MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: yurock.tengo@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_67_7695559.1369924624498" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_67_7695559.1369924624498 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > I was under the impression that {lo vi broda} refers to the nearby broda > Nearby to what, it is important. Tenses within sumti are interpreted relative to the bridi. (CLL 10.13.) So, {lo vi broda} probably refers to something that is nearby to the place where the bridi happens at the time of the bridi happens. Few examples. lo remna vu pensi lo vu dinju Far away, a man thinks about a remote building. The building is far away from the place of thinking, but may be the building which the speaker is in. lo remna pu viska lo ca bajra A man saw a runner. The runner was running at the time it was seen by the man, but now may be resting. and hence {lo pu broda} refers to the past broda > That would be undesirable in many cases. Most often we deal with present things. We cannot, for example, touch things from the past. mi ca tavla lo pu bajra I now talk to the one who was running. It does not mean that I send my phrases into the past, so the runner in the past can hear me. The sentence does not say that there is a connection between the event of talking and the event of running. I just give a hint that the one I am now talking to was running. Suppose I know that the reader of my sentence saw that man running yesterday, so that would be a good hint. Otherwise, {lo vi broda} would refer to something that is a broda on the > condition that it is close, and could morph into something else if it > happens to be somewhere else. > {lo vi broda} says that the referent, call it x, "fits" the first place of the selbri {vi broda}, i.e. {xy vi broda} is true. Let's use an example. mi catlu lo vi mlatu I look at a nearby cat. {lo vi mlatu} says that the referent (x) is a cat that is near to the looker, the reference point of the bridi. Another cat (y) that is far away from me cannot be the referent of {lo vi mlatu}, because {.y bu vi mlatu} is false. The idea is not that x can morph into y, but that from x and y it selects x based on their location. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_67_7695559.1369924624498 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I was under the impression that {lo vi broda} refers to the nearby broda
=

Nearby to what, it is important. Tenses within sumti = are interpreted relative to the bridi. (CLL 10.13.) So, {lo vi broda} proba= bly refers to something that is nearby to the place where the bridi happens= at the time of the bridi happens. Few examples.

lo remna vu pensi l= o vu dinju
Far away, a man thinks about a remote building.

The bu= ilding is far away from the place of thinking, but may be the building whic= h the speaker is in.

lo remna pu viska lo ca bajra
A man saw a ru= nner.

The runner was running at the time it was seen by the man, but= now may be resting.

an= d hence {lo pu broda} refers to the past broda

Tha= t would be undesirable in many cases. Most often we deal with present thing= s. We cannot, for example, touch things from the past.

mi ca tavla l= o pu bajra
I now talk to the one who was running.

It does not mea= n that I send my phrases into the past, so the runner in the past can hear = me. The sentence does not say that there is a connection between the event = of talking and the event of running. I just give a hint that the one I am n= ow talking to was running. Suppose I know that the reader of my sentence sa= w that man running yesterday, so that would be a good hint.
<= br>
Otherwise, {lo vi broda} wo= uld refer to something that is a broda on the condition that it is close, and could morph into something else if it=20 happens to be somewhere else.

{lo vi broda} says t= hat the referent, call it x, "fits" the first place of the selbri {vi broda= }, i.e. {xy vi broda} is true. Let's use an example.

mi catlu lo vi = mlatu
I look at a nearby cat.

{lo vi mlatu} says that the referen= t (x) is a cat that is near to the looker, the reference point of the bridi= . Another cat (y) that is far away from me cannot be the referent of {lo vi= mlatu}, because {.y bu vi mlatu} is false. The idea is not that x can morp= h into y, but that from x and y it selects x based on their location.

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