On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 1:28 PM, .iuROK. <yurock...@gmail.com> wrote:

The discussion was about how to express concepts with "as", such as "I like you as a friend" and "I respect you as a leader." Others expressed that this is "I like You-As-Friend", that is, the "as" lives in the sumti,=20 similar to how it does in English. Some suggested a NOI for this; others suggested a brivla with place structure something like "x1 is x2 as=20 considered in capacity x3 (ka)". All considered this to live at sumti level= .

The easiest I can think of i= s:

mi pendo nelci do

Clear enough, I think. And this is a gen= eric pattern to translate "x1 broda (x2, considered as brode)":

x2 brode se broda x1

Now let's try to expand the tanru. One can like in different ways. That is, he can have different kinds of positive feelings or attitudes that=20 would qualify for the generic term "x1 likes x2". The corresponding term in Lojban is {nelci}. We need a way to specify which of these kinds of=20 feelings or attitudes x1 has for x2. Or, in other words, in which way x1 likes x2. So, I interpret "I like you as a friend" as "I like you in a=20 way typical for friends". Now to Lojban.

mi nelci do tai lo'e nu zu'= i nelci lo pendo be ri

By the way, I don't like the "x considered as y" construction in natlangs. I think, it obscures the meaning in many cases. So, my opinion is that=20 implementing it in Lojban would be an awful move. :)

Now to=20 respect. Again, we have a generic term {sinma}, and we need to specify,=20 respect of which kind is it. I think, differences become apparent in=20 different situations. For example, I may feel respect to a jbocre when=20 he talks in or about Lojban; in other words, in a "Lojbanic situation".=20 So, "I respect you as a leader" would be:

mi sinma do fau lo'e nu do= gidva

tanru are frequently adequate, but I thin= k we pretty much all agree that they aren't a "solution", they're a way of = getting things across when it's obvious what you mean. As the "respect as a= leader" example shows, there are often several obvious things that you mig= ht mean by a tanru.

That {tai lo'e nu} construct is interesting, but it seems to= be more like a selbri relative clause (which is what I proposed on IRC) th= an a tag construct. ({tai} in general is like this, which is why I've never= particularly liked it.)

<= /div>

How does {tai} expands to brivla form?

Is it {po'oi + t= amsmi} or {no'oi +tamsmi} or what? If it has {fi'o} then please define it f= ormally.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

------=_Part_485_15624949.1369980269481--