Received: from mail-pb0-f56.google.com ([209.85.160.56]:50582) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UuPPn-0000mj-05; Wed, 03 Jul 2013 08:56:25 -0700 Received: by mail-pb0-f56.google.com with SMTP id rp16sf75513pbb.1 for ; Wed, 03 Jul 2013 08:56:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=O+B79fZCi5Zi7eXXVBLIh2KPrBeVJ7WQXWyvG7+Ng1w=; b=yIZa6OEZmcJfR8keQZp2gCarZjEN/m4ePn+37o1mpx4sy8D5tipmnWqIDOp7vAQ/aQ EsvgZbgen4CAke77g/4ZtDikoldSikF+xyWVG+z/2apkoyv29pGMo+sCjIcuZydBuuUA 1hxf88RW+xrQPJxCTKqc7WyZ2zEuQiACLYU29+1bZMLXNSCsfyAoRnLFYrf8VDrkkaD9 qKyQ6gA/Vn3PNNHuzD2u5/kiIODqHCiwIHYrIg/vPmNKIBTRqM69oueDugPu9/7KG9zw UuKU0uFPN4sqNidAcTSNHpohfPXmCy0iiVe8DwcRNGqAo+0JX4Wq6YH7C2AEk85H4Nok TdTg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=O+B79fZCi5Zi7eXXVBLIh2KPrBeVJ7WQXWyvG7+Ng1w=; b=frIW0IuVjKJzqmb3aSsfFfpARXRp4n0zkmjULp1zl6sQT9VAQhlPzm/H/M7xFEpsh8 T45bYXSnAWs9bbaqXZvwdUduubrllRYP7jgfJTO9jWStFlJJR19S+ex4f3MwPuN7iTNB Jduc4o5bMhvPbCo8Ax664kAnKe72D5jvWh8uqko964DxsDcqmhdMhrhN1WB8f5dgy997 fecbEgTK5DVYCMi2GOsPOeP2dhAfr7c+3MTDSPeK2Spanuvy2asqyCfkU74wDMHjER00 tFehm+hzPWeVLwdEF1/SRSDKQZPWsMtmuKU7a1HzzVZI33vR1tV1QX1FHl3lckbROVWB iYSA== X-Received: by 10.50.131.135 with SMTP id om7mr149916igb.7.1372866971856; Wed, 03 Jul 2013 08:56:11 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.39.39 with SMTP id m7ls2958485igk.29.canary; Wed, 03 Jul 2013 08:56:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.12.104 with SMTP id x8mr1152232igb.1.1372866968441; Wed, 03 Jul 2013 08:56:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oa0-x236.google.com (mail-oa0-x236.google.com [2607:f8b0:4003:c02::236]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c7si1790509igm.0.2013.07.03.08.56.08 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 03 Jul 2013 08:56:08 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4003:c02::236 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4003:c02::236; Received: by mail-oa0-x236.google.com with SMTP id o6so403117oag.13 for ; Wed, 03 Jul 2013 08:56:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.125.100 with SMTP id mp4mr1347127oeb.60.1372866968240; Wed, 03 Jul 2013 08:56:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.182.4.165 with HTTP; Wed, 3 Jul 2013 08:56:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 11:56:08 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Question about tense From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4003:c02::236 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b3a83d6f74a8404e09d7f77 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --047d7b3a83d6f74a8404e09d7f77 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The interval X is not specified at all, IMO If you had said "mi co'a ba ze'u pu bajra", that would mean "I am at the beginning of a long future time of having had run" (which is true, if you have ever run in the past), then X=3Dze'u. --gejyspa On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Sebastian Fr=F6jd wr= ote: > Ok, but I'm still not convinced. But first lets split the sentence into > two propositions: > > 1. {mi baze'upu bajra} specify in which time interval my running takes > place. No problem to understand and we could as well simplify this into > just {mi ze'u bajra} to get to the point. > > 2. {mi co'a bajra} says that in the beginning of some unspecified interva= l > goi X I start running. > > Case I: Is the interval X identical to {ze'u}? In this case the event of > my running must be in the beginning of {ze'u}. > > Case II: Is the interval X not specified in the bridi at all? In this cas= e > the beginning of running takes place in some unspecified interval and the > interval {ze'u} says that this running takes place for a long time interv= al > in the beginning of the unspecified interval. > > > Ok, so which interpretation do you choose? > > mu'omi'e jongausib > > > 2013/7/3 Michael Turniansky > >> Well, the way I would interpret that sentence is "I will be having >> started to run, for a long time" That is to say, I interpret it as mi ba >> ze'u (pu (co'a bajra)). See for example 10.3.16 That is, I would >> interpret all tenses as going outward from the selbri. But reasonable >> people may disagree with me. And so may unreasonable ones. I live it u= p >> to you to interpret which category the toltu'i be mi are in. >> >> --gejyspa >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 8:42 AM, jongausib wrote: >> >>> >>> What is the proper interpretation of the sentence {mi baze'upu co'a >>> bajra}? >>> >>> 1. That the "start running-predicate" takes place through the whole >>> intervall, which probably means that the start running intervall is a p= art >>> of some other unspecified intervall. >>> >>> or >>> >>> 2. That I start running in the beginning of the intervall {baze'upu}. >>> >>> or something else? >>> >>> >>> I couldn't figure this out by reading CLL or BPFK sections, so please >>> help! >>> >>> mu'omi'e jongausib >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --047d7b3a83d6f74a8404e09d7f77 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The interval X is not specified at all, IMO =A0If you had = said "mi co'a ba ze'u pu bajra", that would mean "I = am at the beginning of a long future time of having had run" (which is= true, if you have ever run in the past), then X=3Dze'u.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa



On Wed, Ju= l 3, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Sebastian Fr=F6jd <so.cool.ogi@gmail.com>= wrote:
Ok, but I'm still = not convinced. But first lets split the sentence into two propositions:
=
1. {mi baze'upu bajra} specify in which time interval my run= ning takes place. No problem to understand and we could as well simplify th= is into just {mi ze'u bajra} to get to the point.

2. {mi co'a bajra} says that in the beginning of some un= specified interval goi X I start running.

Case I: Is the interval X= identical to {ze'u}? In this case the event of my running must be in t= he beginning of {ze'u}.

Case II: Is the interval X not specified in the bridi at all= ? In this case the beginning of running takes place in some unspecified int= erval and the interval {ze'u} says that this running takes place for a = long time interval in the beginning of the unspecified interval.


Ok, so which interpretation do you choose?

=
mu'omi'e jongausib


2= 013/7/3 Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
=A0 Well, the way I would i= nterpret that sentence is "I will be having started to run, for a long= time" That is to say, I interpret it as mi ba ze'u (pu (co'a = bajra)). =A0 See for example 10.3.16 =A0That is, I would interpret all tens= es as going outward from the selbri. =A0But reasonable people may disagree = with me. =A0And so may unreasonable ones. =A0I live it up to you to interpr= et which category the toltu'i be mi =A0are in.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa



On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 8:42 AM, jongausib <so.cool.og= i@gmail.com> wrote:

What is the proper interpretation of the= sentence {mi baze'upu co'a bajra}?

1. That the "start = running-predicate" takes place through the whole intervall, which prob= ably means that the start running intervall is a part of some other unspeci= fied intervall.

or

2. That I start running in the beginning of the intervall {ba= ze'upu}.

or something else?


I couldn't figure thi= s out by reading CLL or BPFK sections, so please help!

mu'omi= 9;e jongausib

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=A0

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=A0
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