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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 11:25:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: iesk <pa.fae@gmx.de>
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Subject: [lojban-beginners] Tanru-internal connectives, place structure, non-sense
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.i je zei .anste

And again I am all of a sudden confused by the simplest Lojbanic=20
expressions. Help!

I understand that, in a tanru of the form {[brodi] brode JA broda}, the=20
place structures of {broda} and {brode} are 'logically connected'. For=20
example, in {ti blanu je zdani} (CLL #12.12), {ti} fills the x1 place of=20
both {blanu} and {zdani}. =20

According to CLL, {ti blanu je zdani} means the same as {ti blanu gi'e=20
zdani} (#12.4) and {ti blanu .ije ti zdani} (#12.5). In all three cases,=20
the thing referred to by {ti} both 'blanu's and 'zdani's.

In the above sentences, some sumti places are not filled. The ellipsis of=
=20
sumti has no effect on the place structure; ellipsised sumti places are=20
understood as {zo'e}. For example, {mi tavla do zo'e zo'e} (CLL #5.5) means=
=20
the same thing as {mi tavla do} (CLL #5.8)=20

Likewise, {ti blanu .ije ti zdani} is to be understood as {ti blanu .ije ti=
=20
zdani zo'e}. And {ti blanu gi'e zdani} is equivalent to {ti blanu gi'e=20
zdani zo'e}.

So far, so good.

However, as for tanru-internal logical connection, {ti blanu je zdani=20
zo'e}, while syntactically correct, is semantically problematic, since=20
nobody knows what it means to {se blanu}: [1(2[zdani1 (home(s)) , blanu1=20
(blue thing(s)) :] ti this here)2 [is, does] =AB3(4blanu being blue je and=
=20
zdani being home(s))4=BB3 (5[zdani2 (reside-r(s)) , blanu2 (blue??) :] zo'e=
=20
unspecif it)5]1 (Jbofi'e, for illustration).

So, is {ti blanu je zdani} (CLL #12.12) a meaningful sentence?

To take another example: {sutra je jipci}. Does this express that there is=
=20
a relation between an obvious x1, which is both quick and a chicken, and an=
=20
obvious x2, which is both an event quickly brought about by x1 and the=20
chicken-breed of x1=97which does not make any sense? Does it mean anything?

I'm afraid that I have probably been using sentences like {sutra je jipci}=
=20
rather freely, and without bothering to think about any sumti but the x1.

So, what's the solution? (An ellipsised {vau}? If so, then I'll have at=20
least one follow-up question.)

ki'e do mu'o mi'e .iesk.

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<div dir=3D"ltr">.i je zei .anste<br><br>And again I am all of a sudden con=
fused by the simplest Lojbanic expressions. Help!<br><br>I understand that,=
 in a tanru of the form {[brodi] brode JA broda}, the place structures of {=
broda} and {brode} are 'logically connected'. For example, in {ti blanu je =
zdani} (CLL #12.12), {ti} fills the x1 place of both {blanu} and {zdani}.&n=
bsp; <br><br>According to CLL, {ti blanu je zdani} means the same as {ti bl=
anu gi'e zdani} (#12.4) and {ti blanu .ije ti zdani} (#12.5). In all three =
cases, the thing referred to by {ti} both 'blanu's and 'zdani's.<br><br>In =
the above sentences, some sumti places are not filled. The ellipsis of sumt=
i has no effect on the place structure; ellipsised sumti places are underst=
ood as {zo'e}. For example, {mi tavla do zo'e zo'e} (CLL #5.5) means the sa=
me thing as {mi tavla do} (CLL #5.8) <br><br>Likewise, {ti blanu .ije ti zd=
ani} is to be understood as {ti blanu .ije ti zdani zo'e}. And {ti blanu gi=
'e zdani} is equivalent to {ti blanu gi'e zdani zo'e}.<br><br>So far, so go=
od.<br><br>However, as for tanru-internal logical connection, {ti blanu je =
zdani zo'e}, while syntactically correct, is semantically problematic, sinc=
e nobody knows what it means to {se blanu}: [1(2[zdani1 (home(s)) , blanu1 =
(blue thing(s)) :] ti this here)2 [is, does] =AB3(4blanu being blue je and =
zdani being home(s))4=BB3 (5[zdani2 (reside-r(s)) , blanu2 (blue??) :] zo'e=
 unspecif it)5]1 (Jbofi'e, for illustration).<br><br>So, is {ti blanu je zd=
ani} (CLL #12.12) a meaningful sentence?<br><br>To take another example: {s=
utra je jipci}. Does this express that there is a relation between an obvio=
us x1, which is both quick and a chicken, and an obvious x2, which is both =
an event quickly brought about by x1 and the chicken-breed of x1=97which do=
es not make any sense? Does it mean anything?<br><br>I'm afraid that I have=
 probably been using sentences like {sutra je jipci} rather freely, and wit=
hout bothering to think about any sumti but the x1.<br><br>So, what's the s=
olution? (An ellipsised {vau}? If so, then I'll have at least one follow-up=
 question.)<br><br>ki'e do mu'o mi'e .iesk.<br></div>

<p></p>

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