Received: from mail-ie0-f190.google.com ([209.85.223.190]:54071) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1VciXQ-00067n-9j; Sat, 02 Nov 2013 14:15:24 -0700 Received: by mail-ie0-f190.google.com with SMTP id e14sf1215358iej.27 for ; Sat, 02 Nov 2013 14:15:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=/DB02+dcjEEYPcNY6/9cur5oJCT+y/YeCioznDoH8AY=; b=QWsKVwWubBj/66T7bQJPYg5YeYcQm7h2E6+DAGZ2KKw/gWqb+p65SLDj9w7bGLe7SZ r7Zdy+M1BsVcn7M78tymhZorzWZSUHZQNl6gJaMe67EhFpL8qYMMKXhol8UHacg8xiiK QKBnbVgXu5NffM9bhiZZo9Zu8DQ+RmGt+39WgzlXDm2fvT9MtUSs8+cdwhrOL3X1wmwc X9vmeQ+3SPVlkTexpd4CAePFZcFFRYxyye1c4a6fXIgmtkt8HHhLDQ3dyD+YFmtTTSxC xHdxRmVMceDHOEAzAkgslkvqHTM16o7giZXGme56FNtgf1OM3FZpVZyaoY6ZpqF3qp+z GkHg== X-Received: by 10.182.213.7 with SMTP id no7mr77657obc.19.1383426914044; Sat, 02 Nov 2013 14:15:14 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.108.162 with SMTP id hl2ls1205096obb.56.gmail; Sat, 02 Nov 2013 14:15:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.182.153.68 with SMTP id ve4mr990366obb.39.1383426911939; Sat, 02 Nov 2013 14:15:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-x231.google.com (mail-vc0-x231.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c03::231]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f7si1654879vdi.3.2013.11.02.14.15.11 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 02 Nov 2013 14:15:11 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::231 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c03::231; Received: by mail-vc0-f177.google.com with SMTP id ib11so3675401vcb.8 for ; Sat, 02 Nov 2013 14:15:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.220.244.132 with SMTP id lq4mr653336vcb.31.1383426911808; Sat, 02 Nov 2013 14:15:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.58.188.111 with HTTP; Sat, 2 Nov 2013 14:14:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Luke Bergen Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2013 17:14:51 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] multiple connectives To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::231 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0115f682a6b48004ea382db4 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --089e0115f682a6b48004ea382db4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Ahhh, see I was thinking of it as more of a "regardless of whether or not heaven is falling". More like .u than .e. That may just be me missing some nuance though. On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 5:07 PM, Jacob Errington wrote: > That's correct, and it can be used like that in cases such as {"I found > the movie really good," "I did too."} -> {".i mi mutce co se pluka tu'a lo > skina" ".i mi ji'a go'i"}. It just turns out that this meaning carries over > to the one we're looking for. We're considering the "as heaven falls" part > of the sentence to be an addition to the original; justice is being done > simultaneously to a *lot* of things, of which heaven falling is considered > a salient addition. > > > .i mi'e la tsani mu'o > > > On 2 November 2013 16:59, Luke Bergen wrote: > >> I think I may have been mis-using "ji'a" for a long time now. What >> exactly does "ji'a" mean such that it conveys what we're shooting for here? >> The gloss for it "additionally" made me think it was used for things like >> "I think this movie is really good. Additionally (ji'a) it looks really >> nice." => "mi pensi lo du'u lo skina ku xamgu .i ji'a bo melbi" >> >> >> On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 4:47 PM, Jacob Errington wrote: >> >>> Connectives and tags are fundamentally different things, which explains >>> why when we want to use a tag as a connective, we have to coerce it with >>> the CONNECTIVE TAG BO formulation (e.g. .i TAG bo, je TAG bo, .e TAG bo, >>> etc.). Even if we coerced {ca} into a connective, in your example, we >>> wouldn't be much further ahead since we can't connect connectives. (A bit >>> too meta.) We need to find a different approach. >>> >>> Let's examine the meaning of what you want to say: "even" in this case >>> is carrying a meaning of "one wouldn't expect the main event to occur when >>> the tagged event does, but it does!" so to remark on this, let's just use >>> {ji'a}. {.i vudypai ca lo ji'a sai nu lo tsani ca'o farlu}. >>> >>> .i mi'e la tsani mu'o >>> >>> >>> On 2 November 2013 13:50, Luke Bergen wrote: >>> >>>> I don't know if this is more suitable to the beginner list of the main >>>> list, but since it's a question, I figure it may be useful to some new >>>> folks. >>>> >>>> Is it possible (and if so, how) to have multiple tags/connectors? >>>> >>>> Let me explain what I mean. >>>> >>>> On the new jboselkei (thanks for getting it back up again qx4096), I'm >>>> trying to translate this: >>>> "Let justice be done even as heaven falls." >>>> >>>> And in trying to get the flavor of the "even" part of the phrase, I >>>> think it's a kind of mixture of "ca" and ".u". But the form "ko'a broda >>>> ko'e ca .u ko'i" is not valid. It's possible to mix tags like "pu ca" or >>>> "ca bai", but I guess logical connectives are different? >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --089e0115f682a6b48004ea382db4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ahhh, see I was thinking of it as more of a "regardle= ss of whether or not heaven is falling". =A0More like .u than .e. =A0T= hat may just be me missing some nuance though.


On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 5:07 PM, Jacob Erring= ton <nictytan@gmail.com> wrote:
That's correct, and it can be used like that in cases = such as {"I found the movie really good," "I did too."}= -> {".i mi mutce co se pluka tu'a lo skina" ".i mi j= i'a go'i"}. It just turns out that this meaning carries over t= o the one we're looking for. We're considering the "as heaven = falls" part of the sentence to be an addition to the original; justice= is being done simultaneously to a *lot* of things, of which heaven falling= is considered a salient addition.


.i mi'e la tsani mu'o


On 2 November 2013 16:59, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com><= /span> wrote:
I think I may have been mis= -using "ji'a" for a long time now. =A0What exactly does "= ;ji'a" mean such that it conveys what we're shooting for here?= =A0The gloss for it "additionally" made me think it was used for= things like "I think this movie is really good. Additionally (ji'= a) it looks really nice." =A0=3D> "mi pensi lo du'u lo ski= na ku xamgu .i ji'a bo melbi"


On Sat, Nov 2= , 2013 at 4:47 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com> wro= te:
Connectives and tags a= re fundamentally different things, which explains why when we want to use a= tag as a connective, we have to coerce it with the CONNECTIVE TAG BO formu= lation (e.g. .i TAG bo, je TAG bo, .e TAG bo, etc.). Even if we coerced {ca= } into a connective, in your example, we wouldn't be much further ahead= since we can't connect connectives. (A bit too meta.) We need to find = a different approach.

Let's examine the meaning of what you want to say: "even= " in this case is carrying a meaning of "one wouldn't expect = the main event to occur when the tagged event does, but it does!" so t= o remark on this, let's just use {ji'a}. {.i vudypai ca lo ji'a= sai nu lo tsani ca'o farlu}.

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

<= br>
On 2 November 2013 13:50, Luke Berg= en <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
I don= 't know if this is more suitable to the beginner list of the main list,= but since it's a question, I figure it may be useful to some new folks= .

Is it possible (and if so, how) to have multiple tags/connec= tors?

Let me explain what I mean.

On= the new jboselkei (thanks for getting it back up again qx4096), I'm tr= ying to translate this:
"Let justice be done even as heaven = falls."

And in trying to get the flavor of the "even= " part of the phrase, I think it's a kind of mixture of "ca&q= uot; and ".u". =A0But the form "ko'a broda ko'e ca .= u ko'i" is not valid. =A0It's possible to mix tags like "= pu ca" or "ca bai", but I guess logical connectives are diff= erent?

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