Received: from mail-pd0-f191.google.com ([209.85.192.191]:51145)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.80.1)
	(envelope-from <lojban-beginners+bncBCV3TMWBWMCRBFHY6WJQKGQEPSGYXQY@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1Vew2g-0000jt-8K; Fri, 08 Nov 2013 16:04:51 -0800
Received: by mail-pd0-f191.google.com with SMTP id q10sf477680pdj.18
        for <multiple recipients>; Fri, 08 Nov 2013 16:04:38 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806;
        h=to:subject:mime-version:date:from:in-reply-to:references:message-id
         :user-agent:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results
         :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help
         :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type
         :content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=tEJvh0r6n9uORifxZ40yceX1dhbMn6bpUVhJ0+jpVqE=;
        b=emmlxAZaN4s2ZfHrKxIzQy9XR7OdW0t9ydTd6aZJQBXNdnO9ivEtS1qRLYKol5M2Li
         qwftlm2ExEzRRN5ARCQDQEiLRVTJYTv0WZAsMmkEvELpFTqIVQ0acabP46UuK2OOGLyC
         4hXECSORAtxQOjs6js6ThCOv1vaI6HhlgoatwWqZQbeTeNjmaegaZsftnSvMrsW27HtB
         tlt75LkcTQe1DyznzFn/mE7aMWKJGIuzog2C/YofukxSt2bp2ecM9K1SRPkQ+WybFkTh
         bY9a7Wni6t+Kxedoo8o2SxgP5wicf3RWPEfA065PedoBNknrdHsf9VYwJTBUME5pFyEg
         vN/A==
X-Received: by 10.50.239.132 with SMTP id vs4mr115016igc.4.1383955478778;
        Fri, 08 Nov 2013 16:04:38 -0800 (PST)
X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.50.164.228 with SMTP id yt4ls1190817igb.18.canary; Fri, 08 Nov
 2013 16:04:36 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 10.43.149.144 with SMTP id kk16mr660977icc.32.1383955476106;
        Fri, 08 Nov 2013 16:04:36 -0800 (PST)
Received: from www1.webmail.pair.com (www1.webmail.pair.com. [209.68.6.94])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 8si654423igl.2.2013.11.08.16.04.35
        for <lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>;
        Fri, 08 Nov 2013 16:04:35 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 209.68.6.94 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of m3o@plasmatix.com) client-ip=209.68.6.94;
Received: by www1.webmail.pair.com (Postfix, from userid 65534)
	id 917BCF1846; Fri,  8 Nov 2013 19:04:35 -0500 (EST)
To: <lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Tanru-internal connectives, place structure,  non-sense
MIME-Version: 1.0
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2013 01:04:35 +0100
From: selpa'i <m3o@plasmatix.com>
In-Reply-To: <c3bab57c-c6e4-4409-a86b-d78f06dc939e@googlegroups.com>
References: <64e7cd25-cdd9-46af-b396-dfce549aee2c@googlegroups.com>
 <CAKOEKkQgXgBD34PRvwAT9BD+thTfpFFXuvaam4aOi-SkLfXDLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c3bab57c-c6e4-4409-a86b-d78f06dc939e@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <216f6d9e3649c17dd8dd1bcc47381177@plasmatix.com>
X-Sender: m3o@plasmatix.com
User-Agent: RoundCube Webmail/0.8.1
X-Original-Sender: m3o@plasmatix.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com;       spf=neutral
 (google.com: 209.68.6.94 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record
 for domain of m3o@plasmatix.com) smtp.mail=m3o@plasmatix.com
Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban-beginners.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/post>, <mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/>, <mailto:lojban-beginners+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners>
Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe>, <mailto:lojban-beginners+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe>, <mailto:googlegroups-manage+300742228892+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/)
X-Spam_score: 0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

On 08.11.2013 23:36, iesk wrote:
> But it
> seems to me that {ti blanu je zdani} is *not* a good example sentence
> in the reference grammar.

I always treated it like this: When one predicate has more places than=20
the other, the {je} connection only affects those places that "overlap".=20
In this example, blanu1 and zdani1 are connected, but zdani2 is not,=20
because there is no blanu2. Without this, the example would indeed be=20
questionable, but tanru internal connectives would then be even more=20
useless, so I don't recommend this interpretation.

> (Since 'the x2 of a one-place brivla' is a separate issue, separately
> discussed, that need not distract us here, I'll stick to the {sutra=20
> je
> jipci} example.)

Probably a good idea.

> la gejyspa ku cusku di'e
>
>> "mi sutra je jipci" is a perfectly fine sentence to say

I think it's nonsense.

> I agree that 'I am fast, and a chicken' is what that sentence is
> probably supposed to mean, and what will be understood by a
> co-operative listener. But then, the speaker should have said {mi
> sutra gi'e jipci} or so.

Exactly.

> I don't think {mi sutra je jipci} makes
> sense.

Me neither. It would be hard to find anything that both {se sutra} and=20
{se jipci}.

> If it did, that would mean that places could be pragmatically
> cancelled out/filled with {zi'o} =85 or {no da}, whatever.

{zi'o} might be debatable, but {no da} is out of the question. There=20
cannot be a hidden negation in a {zo'e}.

> But I think a
> legitimate Lojbanic reaction (besides {ki'a}) to {mi sutra je jipci}
> would always be {sutra je jipci ma}=97the second argument is still=20
> there
> and can always be made explicit. Otherwise, we'd end up with place
> structure ambiguity in ellipsis sentences, wouldn't we?
>
> My tentative conclusion is that CLL #12.12 might better be listed as
> an erratum. Opinions?

I think it's fine to use tanru internal connectives when all the places=20
do line up. And I use the rule that "everything lines up with a=20
non-existent place". My rationale is that the alternative would be=20
useless.

Also, I think it's important to make a difference between connected=20
seltau units, and connected tertau units. This thread is only about the=20
latter. The expansion for connected seltau units is deliberately vague,=20
and usually gets expanded into two seperate tanru. But this is probably=20
for another thread.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.