Received: from mail-qe0-f58.google.com ([209.85.128.58]:48058) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Vfe24-0000CN-RZ; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 15:03:09 -0800 Received: by mail-qe0-f58.google.com with SMTP id 1sf863432qee.23 for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 15:02:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=to:subject:mime-version:date:from:in-reply-to:references:message-id :user-agent:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=2Z2OmbT2q6pPj5wD+5bYISozOZSPlejAVG/RSGvoqXU=; b=kV6gXRWks2UabuXp4WnKPZF+jykgUYOuzPHsDajY4TDnnq2R9FRuIBpQ2ioRa7bdUF zPndudwuw22hitHZtXaA6PVxHCaFB0/TckA64Bdot+3ukr0OtGbqyWv1WVp8e/4tOKIC pluaMCiPCQhMC1o7Xh/X5kTZNH29TD7sI+ko7hYR4W1rQ+8RNIVyF9lfoRG1ytNrJQU6 rCz+1J1a9mYIWy3p6WvdUydbRs+RxJVBKXHxsiA09LdiO8mr68JbUsmh5zziLtsSZEOQ JfBg7m7H9kYxtYtA5wpEgSJK9GGm1ofo3vcjeNFJkZrsJTi4bYXmIbO7MsEsUDU4tZhJ bepQ== X-Received: by 10.50.72.114 with SMTP id c18mr232368igv.5.1384124578479; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 15:02:58 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.20.2 with SMTP id j2ls1593901ige.21.canary; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 15:02:57 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.66.121.226 with SMTP id ln2mr8583648pab.37.1384124576978; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 15:02:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from www2.webmail.pair.com (www2.webmail.pair.com. [66.39.3.96]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id qb12si2153465igc.1.2013.11.10.15.02.56 for ; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 15:02:56 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 66.39.3.96 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of m3o@plasmatix.com) client-ip=66.39.3.96; Received: (qmail 2135 invoked by uid 65534); 10 Nov 2013 23:02:56 -0000 To: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Tanru-internal connectives, place structure, non-sense MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:02:56 +0100 From: selpa'i In-Reply-To: <03af24e3-315d-4a55-9e38-0b54e271d43f@googlegroups.com> References: <64e7cd25-cdd9-46af-b396-dfce549aee2c@googlegroups.com>

<216f6d9e3649c17dd8dd1bcc47381177@plasmatix.com> <03af24e3-315d-4a55-9e38-0b54e271d43f@googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <3c60622cc6761bf0be39ba7e5dd8e00e@plasmatix.com> X-Sender: m3o@plasmatix.com User-Agent: RoundCube Webmail/0.8.1 X-Original-Sender: m3o@plasmatix.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 66.39.3.96 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of m3o@plasmatix.com) smtp.mail=m3o@plasmatix.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / On 10.11.2013 17:38, iesk wrote: > la selpa'i ku cusku di'e >>I always treated it like this: When one predicate has more places >> than >>the other, the {je} connection only affects those places that >> "overlap". >>In this example, blanu1 and zdani1 are connected, but zdani2 is not, >>because there is no blanu2. Without this, the example would indeed be >>questionable, but tanru internal connectives would then be even more >>useless, so I don't recommend this interpretation. > > I understand. You thus save {ti blanu je zdani} from being useless > non- > sense. That's right. > (Even then, {ti blanu je zdani} instead of then-equivalent {ti > blanu gi'e zdani} seems like bad style to me. I think it is a bit of > a > pity that it is a CLL example sentence.) Could be. It's not easy to find good examples of {broda je brode}. You'd need something where both predicates have the same valency and whose places are compatible. The examples tend to be very boring: (1) ti blanu je xunre "This is blue and red." There aren't many unary predicates, and most of them are colors. For higher arity, the two predicates usually come from the same semantic family, e.g.: (2) mi troci je snada lo ka klama "I tried and succeeded to go." (even the x3 matches) Such perfect alignment is rare in Lojban. The place structures just aren't uniform enough, and often a random "under conditions" or "by standard" place messes up the symmetry. > I suppose you also accept {blanu je zdani ti}, by the same reasoning? Actually, I don't. Here, {ti} fills the x2 of both {blanu} and {zdani}, and since blanu2 doesn't exist, it's a questionable sentence. I see your point, however. By the way, I see the same problems with {gi'e} + {vau} connections, because the places after the "zipper" {vau} also need to match, just like with a {je} connection. For example: (3) mi viska gi'e klama vau lo tricu "I see and-go-to the tree [from some place which is also a condition for my visual perception]" So this problem crops up with bridi-tail connection as well. mu'o mi'e la selpa'i -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.