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Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 07:40:00 -0200
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Connectives & time
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Felipe_Gon=E7alves_Assis?= <felipeg.assis@gmail.com>
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coi mudri

I don't think so, but see below.

{ze'e} is invariantly used to describe an unbounded time. {ze'e ba} can be
translated as "forever" + future, and {ze'e pu} as "forever" + perfect.

  "I will love you forever" (until the end of time)
  {mi ze'e ba prami do}

  "I have loved you forever" (since always)
  {mi ze'e pu prami do}

I see {ro roi} being used to mean "always" in the sense of "for every
situation", without worrying about the length of time intervals.

 "I always agree with you" (Every time there is something for us to agree
upon)
  {mi ro roi tugni do}

Now, contrasting this with
  {mi ze'e tugni do}
  "I forever agree with you" (about something / some things)

I can see where your question comes from. One remarkable difference between
{ro roi} and {ze'e} is that the latter refers to a single event, only
qualifying its time span, while the former usually refers to several events
({roi} is used for counting, after all). This can be salient in examples
like the previous ones.

Now, with regards to your examples, it depends on what you count as an
event of broda jo nai brode. When it instantly changes from broda to brode,
does one event end and another one start?

I would say no. I would say that even though we may define {borda jo nai
brode} in terms of {broda} and {brode}, we can only define an event of
broda jo nai brode in terms of {broda jo nai brode}, without any reference
to {broda} or {brode} by themselves.

.a'o mi sidju

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.


On 8 January 2014 15:37, mudri <jammyatjammy@gmail.com> wrote:

> I want to check my understanding of {ze'e} vs {roroi}. Is it true that
> {ze'e broda jonai brode} means =93forever, broda xor brode is true, never
> changing between the two=94 and {roroi broda jonai brode} means =93at any
> instant, broda xor brode is true=94?
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div>coi mudri<br></div><div><br>=
I don&#39;t think so, but see below.<br><br>{ze&#39;e} is invariantly used =
to describe an unbounded time. {ze&#39;e ba} can be translated as &quot;for=
ever&quot; + future, and {ze&#39;e pu} as &quot;forever&quot; + perfect.<br=
>

<br>=A0 &quot;I will love you forever&quot; (until the end of time)<br>=A0 =
{mi ze&#39;e ba prami do}<br><br>=A0 &quot;I have loved you forever&quot; (=
since always)<br>=A0 {mi ze&#39;e pu prami do}<br><br>I see {ro roi} being =
used to mean &quot;always&quot; in the sense of &quot;for every situation&q=
uot;, without worrying about the length of time intervals.<br>

</div>=A0<br>=A0&quot;I always agree with you&quot; (Every time there is so=
mething for us to agree upon)<br>=A0 {mi ro roi tugni do}<br><br>Now, contr=
asting this with<br></div></div>=A0 {mi ze&#39;e tugni do}<br></div>=A0 &qu=
ot;I forever agree with you&quot; (about something / some things)<br>

<br></div>I can see where your question comes from. One remarkable differen=
ce between {ro roi} and {ze&#39;e} is that the latter refers to a single ev=
ent, only qualifying its time span, while the former usually refers to seve=
ral events ({roi} is used for counting, after all). This can be salient in =
examples like the previous ones.<br>

<br></div><div>Now, with regards to your examples, it depends on what you c=
ount as an event of broda jo nai brode. When it instantly changes from brod=
a to brode, does one event end and another one start?<br><br>I would say no=
. I would say that even though we may define {borda jo nai brode} in terms =
of {broda} and {brode}, we can only define an event of broda jo nai brode i=
n terms of {broda jo nai brode}, without any reference to {broda} or {brode=
} by themselves.<br>
<br></div><div>.a&#39;o mi sidju<br><br></div><div>mu&#39;o<br>mi&#39;e .as=
iz.<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote">On 8 January 2014 15:37, mudri <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:jammyatjammy@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jammyatjammy@gmail.com</a>&gt;<=
/span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">I want to check my understa=
nding of {ze&#39;e} vs {roroi}. Is it true that {ze&#39;e broda jonai brode=
} means =93forever, broda xor brode is true, never changing between the two=
=94 and {roroi broda jonai brode} means =93at any instant, broda xor brode =
is true=94?</div>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">

<p></p>

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</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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