Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of so.cool.ogi@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c04::22b as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c04::22b;
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Connectives & time
References: <3b2eb236-ffa9-48b6-922e-6008ab83553d@googlegroups.com> <CALMa68p0BA3-ms0My29c1seuQx7s72rOn=YmZLcMHjjAX6bqOQ@mail.gmail.com>
From: Sebastian <so.cool.ogi@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CALMa68p0BA3-ms0My29c1seuQx7s72rOn=YmZLcMHjjAX6bqOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-Id: <ECFD1CA8-9F3B-4054-BEA6-DBF773EB6847@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 11:18:35 +0100
To: "lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com" <lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0)
Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary=Apple-Mail-288EC659-6499-4B7B-8414-953559379916
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Spam_score: 0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

--Apple-Mail-288EC659-6499-4B7B-8414-953559379916
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Don't you think that {mi ze'e pu prami do} could mean either {mi ze'e pu su=
'oroi prami do} (=3D"I have always loved you at least one time") or {mi ze'=
e pu roroi prami do} (=3D"I have always loved you at every time" (whatever =
"times" refers to here)) or {mi ze'e pu ru'i prami do} (=3D"I have always l=
oved you continuously") etc?
In most contexts I think the latter is the most plausible interpretation of=
 bare {ze'e pu}, don't you think?
{mi roroi prami do} could for example means {mi pu ze'u roroi ca ze'i pu pr=
ami do} (=3D"there was a time in the past when I at every occasion had love=
d you for a short time").
See also CLL 10.9.
mu'omi'e seb

Skickat fr=E5n min iPhone

> 9 jan 2014 kl. 10:40 skrev Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis <felipeg.assis@gmail.=
com>:
>=20
> coi mudri
>=20
> I don't think so, but see below.
>=20
> {ze'e} is invariantly used to describe an unbounded time. {ze'e ba} can b=
e translated as "forever" + future, and {ze'e pu} as "forever" + perfect.
>=20
>   "I will love you forever" (until the end of time)
>   {mi ze'e ba prami do}
>=20
>   "I have loved you forever" (since always)
>   {mi ze'e pu prami do}
>=20
> I see {ro roi} being used to mean "always" in the sense of "for every sit=
uation", without worrying about the length of time intervals.
> =20
>  "I always agree with you" (Every time there is something for us to agree=
 upon)
>   {mi ro roi tugni do}
>=20
> Now, contrasting this with
>   {mi ze'e tugni do}
>   "I forever agree with you" (about something / some things)
>=20
> I can see where your question comes from. One remarkable difference betwe=
en {ro roi} and {ze'e} is that the latter refers to a single event, only qu=
alifying its time span, while the former usually refers to several events (=
{roi} is used for counting, after all). This can be salient in examples lik=
e the previous ones.
>=20
> Now, with regards to your examples, it depends on what you count as an ev=
ent of broda jo nai brode. When it instantly changes from broda to brode, d=
oes one event end and another one start?
>=20
> I would say no. I would say that even though we may define {borda jo nai =
brode} in terms of {broda} and {brode}, we can only define an event of brod=
a jo nai brode in terms of {broda jo nai brode}, without any reference to {=
broda} or {brode} by themselves.
>=20
> .a'o mi sidju
>=20
> mu'o
> mi'e .asiz.
>=20
>=20
>> On 8 January 2014 15:37, mudri <jammyatjammy@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I want to check my understanding of {ze'e} vs {roroi}. Is it true that {=
ze'e broda jonai brode} means =93forever, broda xor brode is true, never ch=
anging between the two=94 and {roroi broda jonai brode} means =93at any ins=
tant, broda xor brode is true=94?
>> --=20
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group=
s "Lojban Beginners" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a=
n email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>=20
> --=20
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups=
 "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an=
 email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--Apple-Mail-288EC659-6499-4B7B-8414-953559379916
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=
=3Dutf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Don't you think that {mi ze'e pu p=
rami do} could mean either {mi ze'e pu su'oroi prami do} (=3D"I have always=
 loved you at least one time") or {mi ze'e pu roroi prami do} (=3D"I have a=
lways loved you at every time" (whatever "times" refers to here)) or {mi ze=
'e pu ru'i prami do} (=3D"I have always loved you continuously") etc?</div>=
<div>In most contexts I think the latter is the most plausible interpretati=
on of bare {ze'e pu}, don't you think?</div><div>{mi roroi prami do} could =
for example means {mi pu ze'u roroi ca ze'i pu prami do} (=3D"there was a t=
ime in the past when I at every occasion had loved you for a short time").<=
/div><div>See also CLL 10.9.</div><div>mu'omi'e seb</div><div><br>Skickat f=
r=E5n min iPhone</div><div><br>9 jan 2014 kl. 10:40 skrev Felipe Gon=E7alve=
s Assis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:felipeg.assis@gmail.com">felipeg.assis@gmail.=
com</a>&gt;:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div><div><div><div><div><div>coi mudri<br></div><div><br>I don't think so, =
but see below.<br><br>{ze'e} is invariantly used to describe an unbounded t=
ime. {ze'e ba} can be translated as "forever" + future, and {ze'e pu} as "f=
orever" + perfect.<br>

<br>&nbsp; "I will love you forever" (until the end of time)<br>&nbsp; {mi =
ze'e ba prami do}<br><br>&nbsp; "I have loved you forever" (since always)<b=
r>&nbsp; {mi ze'e pu prami do}<br><br>I see {ro roi} being used to mean "al=
ways" in the sense of "for every situation", without worrying about the len=
gth of time intervals.<br>

</div>&nbsp;<br>&nbsp;"I always agree with you" (Every time there is someth=
ing for us to agree upon)<br>&nbsp; {mi ro roi tugni do}<br><br>Now, contra=
sting this with<br></div></div>&nbsp; {mi ze'e tugni do}<br></div>&nbsp; "I=
 forever agree with you" (about something / some things)<br>

<br></div>I can see where your question comes from. One remarkable differen=
ce between {ro roi} and {ze'e} is that the latter refers to a single event,=
 only qualifying its time span, while the former usually refers to several =
events ({roi} is used for counting, after all). This can be salient in exam=
ples like the previous ones.<br>

<br></div><div>Now, with regards to your examples, it depends on what you c=
ount as an event of broda jo nai brode. When it instantly changes from brod=
a to brode, does one event end and another one start?<br><br>I would say no=
. I would say that even though we may define {borda jo nai brode} in terms =
of {broda} and {brode}, we can only define an event of broda jo nai brode i=
n terms of {broda jo nai brode}, without any reference to {broda} or {brode=
} by themselves.<br>
<br></div><div>.a'o mi sidju<br><br></div><div>mu'o<br>mi'e .asiz.<br></div=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 8 J=
anuary 2014 15:37, mudri <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jammyatjam=
my@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jammyatjammy@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote=
:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">I want to check my understa=
nding of {ze'e} vs {roroi}. Is it true that {ze'e broda jonai brode} means =
=93forever, broda xor brode is true, never changing between the two=94 and =
{roroi broda jonai brode} means =93at any instant, broda xor brode is true=
=94?</div>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">

<p></p>

-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Lojban Beginners" group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban-beginners%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com" =
target=3D"_blank">lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban-beginners@goo=
glegroups.com" target=3D"_blank">lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginn=
ers" target=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners</a>.=
<br>
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out=
" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Lojban Beginners" group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lo=
jban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban-beginners@goo=
glegroups.com">lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginn=
ers">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners</a>.<br>
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out=
">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br>
</div></blockquote></body></html>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;Lojban Beginners&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.<br =
/>
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginn=
ers">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out=
">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br />

--Apple-Mail-288EC659-6499-4B7B-8414-953559379916--