Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 18:57:22 -0800 (PST)
From: MystyrNile a <mystyrnile@gmail.com>
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
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 <6408612.jh3tP7olKH@caracal>
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Lojban sounds and Wikipedia article about
 those sounds
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You can use a uvular for the x? Didn't know that. Germans would be pleased,=
=20
since i think they pronounce their x sound(actually spelt ch in German) in=
=20
the uvular position before t.
Are voiceless palatal fricatives considered acceptable alternatives to the=
=20
default x sound? Because some people (like German speakers) find it easier=
=20
to pronounce that way after /i/.

On Saturday, June 1, 2013 9:55:10 PM UTC-4, Pierre Abbat wrote:
>
> On Saturday, June 01, 2013 23:08:53 Daeldir wrote:=20
> > My question was about the =E2=80=9Crecommended=E2=80=9D pronunciation (=
like, the french=20
> =E2=80=9Cr=E2=80=9D=20
> > sound is very strange for many people, but stay correct in lojban, I=20
> just=20
> > wanted people that learn lojban to speak with a lojban accent, and not =
a=20
> > french accent, if they wish to do so).=20
>
> I don't think a distinct Lojban accent has evolved yet. We could go by=20
> K&F's=20
> pronunciation, once they're old enough, but I hesitate to make their=20
> pronunciation of "x" normative because their father is missing the uvula.=
=20
> Maybe we should wait until a child learns Lojban from two adults with=20
> different=20
> accents.=20
>
> > On an other note, how do you pronunce words like =E2=80=9Cdarxi=E2=80=
=9D or =E2=80=9Cxruti=E2=80=9D?=20
> When I=20
> > try with a tap, =E2=80=9Cxruti=E2=80=9D become =E2=80=9Cxcuti=E2=80=9D =
and =E2=80=9Cdarxi=E2=80=9D becomes =E2=80=9Cdalxi=E2=80=9D. My=20
> > trill being a uvular one, I manage to pronunce those two words by=20
> =E2=80=9Cwaving=E2=80=9D=20
> > my tongue but=E2=80=A6 Well, I have a hard time learning the =E2=80=9Cr=
=E2=80=9D (at least, they=20
> > explained to me an approximated relation beetween the french =E2=80=9Cr=
=E2=80=9D and the=20
> > lojban =E2=80=9Cx=E2=80=9D on the french mailing list).=20
>
> I didn't explain that, thinking it was a bit too complicated, but here it=
=20
> is:=20
> "x" is a voiceless velar or uvular fricative (I'm not sure if I am=20
> pronouncing=20
> a uvular fricative or trill). "r" is a voiced trill when next to "x"; "x"=
=20
> is=20
> uvular when next to "r". "rx" is an alveolar trill followed by a uvular=
=20
> trill;=20
> "xr" is a simultaneous uvulo-alveolar trill which is first voiceless, the=
n=20
> voiced. If "r" occurs between two "x", as in "rirxrxrone" and=20
> "rirxrxrazdani",=20
> instead of using the English "r" as I usually do between consonants, I=20
> pronounce a double trill and turn the voice on and off. If the sequence=
=20
> ends=20
> with "x", as in the hypothetical word "maxrxa", I end with a uvular,=20
> dropping=20
> the alveolar trill.=20
>
> > I find lojban =E2=80=9Cpoor=E2=80=9D in sounds, as there is not many of=
 them. But lojban=20
> may=20
> > become rich in =E2=80=9Ccultural accents=E2=80=9D, since what is a sign=
ificant=20
> difference=20
> > in other languages is only a pronunciation singularity in lojban (I=20
> don't=20
> > have an exemple in english, but in french, the only way to distinguish=
=20
> =E2=80=9Cles=20
> > frais=E2=80=9D (the costs) and =E2=80=9Clait frais=E2=80=9D (fresh milk=
) is in the accent =E2=80=93 and=20
> > people that do not =E2=80=9Chear=E2=80=9D those accents tend to do terr=
ible mistakes=20
> (some=20
> > french don't hear, or at least speak those accents). Although in =E2=80=
=9Cun=20
> brin=20
> > bien brun=E2=80=9D, some put a difference in each =E2=80=9Cun=E2=80=9D,=
 but every french=20
> > understantd it and some don't hear *at all* the difference. That would=
=20
> be=20
> > like in lojban, only =E2=80=9Ccosmetic=E2=80=9D accent. Another example=
 is with the=20
> spanish=20
> > =E2=80=9Cr=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Cpera=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cperra=E2=80=9D=
 are very different in spanish, but would be the=20
> > same in lojban).=20
>
> I pronounce "un" and "in" differently, but once my father said "d=C3=A9fu=
nte"=20
> in a=20
> way that I heard "d=C3=A9feinte".=20
>
> Here are some more minimal pairs/triplets/etc. which may be hard for=20
> speakers=20
> of other languages to hear:=20
> en: sin/sing/thin/thing, ship/sheep, look/Luke=20
> fr: cire/sur/s=C5=93ur/sueur/sieur, p=C3=A9cher/p=C3=AAcher/p=C3=A9chait/=
p=C3=AAchait=20
> es: u=C3=B1=C3=B3n/union, ahorra/ahora=20
>
> Pierre=20
> --=20
> li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa=20
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">You can use a uvular for the x? Didn't know that. Germans =
would be pleased, since i think they pronounce their x sound(actually spelt=
 ch in German) in the uvular position before t.<div>Are voiceless palatal f=
ricatives considered acceptable alternatives to the default x sound? Becaus=
e some people (like German speakers) find it easier to pronounce that way a=
fter /i/.<br><br>On Saturday, June 1, 2013 9:55:10 PM UTC-4, Pierre Abbat w=
rote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8e=
x;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">On Saturday, June 01, 201=
3 23:08:53 Daeldir wrote:
<br>&gt; My question was about the =E2=80=9Crecommended=E2=80=9D pronunciat=
ion (like, the french =E2=80=9Cr=E2=80=9D
<br>&gt; sound is very strange for many people, but stay correct in lojban,=
 I just
<br>&gt; wanted people that learn lojban to speak with a lojban accent, and=
 not a
<br>&gt; french accent, if they wish to do so).
<br>
<br>I don't think a distinct Lojban accent has evolved yet. We could go by =
K&amp;F's=20
<br>pronunciation, once they're old enough, but I hesitate to make their=20
<br>pronunciation of "x" normative because their father is missing the uvul=
a.=20
<br>Maybe we should wait until a child learns Lojban from two adults with d=
ifferent=20
<br>accents.
<br>
<br>&gt; On an other note, how do you pronunce words like =E2=80=9Cdarxi=E2=
=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cxruti=E2=80=9D? When I
<br>&gt; try with a tap, =E2=80=9Cxruti=E2=80=9D become =E2=80=9Cxcuti=E2=
=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cdarxi=E2=80=9D becomes =E2=80=9Cdalxi=E2=80=9D. My
<br>&gt; trill being a uvular one, I manage to pronunce those two words by =
=E2=80=9Cwaving=E2=80=9D
<br>&gt; my tongue but=E2=80=A6 Well, I have a hard time learning the =E2=
=80=9Cr=E2=80=9D (at least, they
<br>&gt; explained to me an approximated relation beetween the french =E2=
=80=9Cr=E2=80=9D and the
<br>&gt; lojban =E2=80=9Cx=E2=80=9D on the french mailing list).
<br>
<br>I didn't explain that, thinking it was a bit too complicated, but here =
it is:=20
<br>"x" is a voiceless velar or uvular fricative (I'm not sure if I am pron=
ouncing=20
<br>a uvular fricative or trill). "r" is a voiced trill when next to "x"; "=
x" is=20
<br>uvular when next to "r". "rx" is an alveolar trill followed by a uvular=
 trill;=20
<br>"xr" is a simultaneous uvulo-alveolar trill which is first voiceless, t=
hen=20
<br>voiced. If "r" occurs between two "x", as in "rirxrxrone" and "rirxrxra=
zdani",=20
<br>instead of using the English "r" as I usually do between consonants, I=
=20
<br>pronounce a double trill and turn the voice on and off. If the sequence=
 ends=20
<br>with "x", as in the hypothetical word "maxrxa", I end with a uvular, dr=
opping=20
<br>the alveolar trill.
<br>
<br>&gt; I find lojban =E2=80=9Cpoor=E2=80=9D in sounds, as there is not ma=
ny of them. But lojban may
<br>&gt; become rich in =E2=80=9Ccultural accents=E2=80=9D, since what is a=
 significant difference
<br>&gt; in other languages is only a pronunciation singularity in lojban (=
I don't
<br>&gt; have an exemple in english, but in french, the only way to disting=
uish =E2=80=9Cles
<br>&gt; frais=E2=80=9D (the costs) and =E2=80=9Clait frais=E2=80=9D (fresh=
 milk) is in the accent =E2=80=93 and
<br>&gt; people that do not =E2=80=9Chear=E2=80=9D those accents tend to do=
 terrible mistakes (some
<br>&gt; french don't hear, or at least speak those accents). Although in =
=E2=80=9Cun brin
<br>&gt; bien brun=E2=80=9D, some put a difference in each =E2=80=9Cun=E2=
=80=9D, but every french
<br>&gt; understantd it and some don't hear *at all* the difference. That w=
ould be
<br>&gt; like in lojban, only =E2=80=9Ccosmetic=E2=80=9D accent. Another ex=
ample is with the spanish
<br>&gt; =E2=80=9Cr=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Cpera=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cperra=E2=
=80=9D are very different in spanish, but would be the
<br>&gt; same in lojban).
<br>
<br>I pronounce "un" and "in" differently, but once my father said "d=C3=A9=
funte" in a=20
<br>way that I heard "d=C3=A9feinte".
<br>
<br>Here are some more minimal pairs/triplets/etc. which may be hard for sp=
eakers=20
<br>of other languages to hear:
<br>en: sin/sing/thin/thing, ship/sheep, look/Luke
<br>fr: cire/sur/s=C5=93ur/sueur/sieur, p=C3=A9cher/p=C3=AAcher/p=C3=A9chai=
t/p=C3=AAchait
<br>es: u=C3=B1=C3=B3n/union, ahorra/ahora
<br>
<br>Pierre
<br>--=20
<br>li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa
<br>
<br></blockquote></div></div>

<p></p>

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