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[37.1.174.101]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id c7sm1028656wjf.19.2014.04.23.04.07.32 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 23 Apr 2014 04:07:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <53579EDF.3010308@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 13:07:11 +0200 From: Ilmen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] how do you use sumka'i to refer to an outer bridi? References: <700717d1-6c0c-4b4c-a6d2-77d5401f0db5@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <700717d1-6c0c-4b4c-a6d2-77d5401f0db5@googlegroups.com> X-Original-Sender: ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::229 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------010307030507030500080105" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010307030507030500080105 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 22/04/2014 18:12, neit wrote: > coi rodo > A good example that I'm trying to wrap my brain around is the=20 > following: Suppose I want to say, "Who wants my dog?" bau la lojban -=20 > .i ma djica lo nu ____ ponse lo mi gerku > I want a sumka'i in the ____ to refer to the "ma" in the main bridi. =20 > How can I do that? Can I use the reflexive sumka'i vo'a? (.i ma=20 > djica lo nu vo'a ponse lo mi gerku)? Or do those reflexive sumka'i=20 > only refer to their native bridi, or can they "reach-out" and refer to=20 > the main bridi of which they are a part? > ki'e pu'o sidju > mi'e neit mu'o {vo'a} always refers back to the first sumti of the main (=3D outmost)=20 bridi of the sentence. Therefore, {vo'a} is perfecty fine in this sentence: {ma djica lo nu vo'a ponse lo mi gerku} In this very case, {ri} probably works too, but I'm not 100% sure, as=20 {ri} doesn't work with some pronouns like {mi}, and the CLL doesn't=20 provide a comprehensive list of the pronouns excluded by {ri}. Nevertheless I don't see any justifiable reason to preclude using {ri}=20 from refering back to {ma}. :) As for the general question of how to refer back to a sumti used in an=20 outer bridi (but not in the main/outermost one, for which you can use=20 {vo'a} and friends), you can use {ri / ra} or the wonderful brika'i {no'a}: {mi djuno lo du'u *lo do pendo* cu djica lo nu *[ri / lo no'a ku]* ponse=20 lo gerku} =3D "I know that [ your friend wants [ he has/possesses a/the dog ] ]" In the above sentence, both "ri" and "lo no'a ku" refers to "lo do pendo". =E2=80=A2 lo no'a (ku) =3D the x1 of the next outer bridi =E2=80=A2 lo se no'a (ku) =3D the x2 of the next outer bridi =E2=80=A2 lo te no'a (ku) =3D the x3 of the next outer bridi You can also use {lo bi'unai [selbri] (ku)} for refering back to=20 something previously mentioned that is/does [selbri]. For example, {lo=20 bi'unai pendo (ku)} =3D "the/an aformentioned friend". mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --------------010307030507030500080105 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 22/04/2014 18:12, neit wrote:
coi rodo
=C2=A0
A good example that I'm trying to wrap my brain around is the following:=C2=A0 Suppose I want to say, "Who wants my dog?"= =C2=A0 bau la lojban - .i ma djica lo nu ____ ponse lo mi gerku
=C2=A0
I want a sumka'i in the ____ to refer to the "ma" in the main bridi.=C2=A0 How can I do that?=C2=A0 Can I use the reflexiv= e sumka'i vo'a?=C2=A0 (.i ma djica lo nu vo'a ponse lo mi gerku)?= =C2=A0 Or do those reflexive sumka'i only refer to their native bridi, or can they "reach-out" and refer to the main bridi of which they are a part?
=C2=A0
ki'e pu'o sidju
=C2=A0
mi'e neit mu'o

{vo'a} always refers back to the first sumti of the main (=3D outmost) bridi of the sentence. Therefore, {vo'a} is perfecty fine in this sentence:

{ma djica lo nu vo'a ponse lo mi gerku}

In this very case, {ri} probably works too, but I'm not 100% sure, as {ri} doesn't work with some pronouns like {mi}, and the CLL doesn't provide a comprehensive list of the pronouns excluded by {ri}.
Nevertheless I don't see any justifiable reason to preclude using {ri} from refering back to {ma}. :)


As for the general question of how to refer back to a sumti used in an outer bridi (but not in the main/outermost one, for which you can use {vo'a} and friends), you can use {ri / ra} or the wonderful brika'i {no'a}:
{mi djuno lo du'u=C2=A0 lo do pendo cu djica lo nu=C2=A0 [ri = / lo no'a ku] ponse lo gerku}
=3D "I know that [ your friend wants [ he has/possesses a/the dog ] ]"<= br>
In the above sentence, both "ri" and "lo no'a ku" refers to "lo do pendo".

=E2=80=A2 lo no'a (ku) =3D the x1 of the next outer bridi
=E2=80=A2 lo se no'a (ku) =3D the x2 of the next outer bridi
=E2=80=A2 lo te no'a (ku) =3D the x3 of the next outer bridi

You can also use {lo bi'unai [selbri] (ku)} for refering back to something previously mentioned that is/does [selbri]. For example, {lo bi'unai pendo (ku)} =3D "the/an aformentioned friend".

mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o


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