Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 11:46:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: neit <kosmikconundrum@gmail.com>
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
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In-Reply-To: <53579EDF.3010308@gmail.com>
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 <53579EDF.3010308@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] how do you use sumka'i to refer to an outer bridi?
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ki'e .ilmen.
=20
pamo'o
I have read through the Lojban Reference Grammer, but I haven't heard of=20
this CLL you reference.  In fact it appears to be the most frequently and=
=20
authoritatively quoted reference on Lojban in these posts.  Could you point=
=20
me to it please?
=20
remo'o
I'm new to here so I'm just now noticing a few things I intend to clean up=
=20
- and I'll start in this post.  (specifically:  using { }, and the more=20
gramatically correct use of {.} in lo mi cmene when signing off)
=20
cimo'o
{vo'a} and friends refer only to the main bridi - je'e .ua
=20
{ri/ra/ru} skip over some sumka'i (I think its just the personal sumka'i=20
{mi/do/mi'o/do'o} and others of their ilk.  However, I infer from your=20
reply that they may refer to sumti outside the sub-bridi.  I think got that=
=20
mixed up with the rule where sumka'i could not refer to sumti outside a=20
quote.  - lo nabmi cu mulno
=20
{no'a} .uasai When you mentioned it, I seemed to have a vague recollection,=
=20
but I think I glossed over that one in the Referenece Guide because it=20
totally had not occured to me tha you could pair it up with a gadri and=20
conversion cmavo!  I suppose you could do that with any brika'i right?  As=
=20
in {lo se broda} would be the x2 sumti of whatever bridi had been assigned=
=20
to {broda}?  That's mighty helpful indeed. =20
=20
pevyselmacysanso
=20
mi'e .neit. mu'o
=20
On Wednesday, April 23, 2014 7:07:11 AM UTC-4, Ilmen wrote:

> On 22/04/2014 18:12, neit wrote:
>
>  coi rodo
> =20
> A good example that I'm trying to wrap my brain around is the following: =
=20
> Suppose I want to say, "Who wants my dog?"  bau la lojban - .i ma djica l=
o=20
> nu ____ ponse lo mi gerku
> =20
> I want a sumka'i in the ____ to refer to the "ma" in the main bridi.  How=
=20
> can I do that?  Can I use the reflexive sumka'i vo'a?  (.i ma djica lo nu=
=20
> vo'a ponse lo mi gerku)?  Or do those reflexive sumka'i only refer to the=
ir=20
> native bridi, or can they "reach-out" and refer to the main bridi of whic=
h=20
> they are a part?
> =20
> ki'e pu'o sidju
> =20
> mi'e neit mu'o
>
>
> {vo'a} always refers back to the first sumti of the main (=3D outmost) br=
idi=20
> of the sentence. Therefore, {vo'a} is perfecty fine in this sentence:
>
> {ma djica lo nu vo'a ponse lo mi gerku}
>
> In this very case, {ri} probably works too, but I'm not 100% sure, as {ri=
}=20
> doesn't work with some pronouns like {mi}, and the CLL doesn't provide a=
=20
> comprehensive list of the pronouns excluded by {ri}.
> Nevertheless I don't see any justifiable reason to preclude using {ri}=20
> from refering back to {ma}. :)
>
>
> As for the general question of how to refer back to a sumti used in an=20
> outer bridi (but not in the main/outermost one, for which you can use=20
> {vo'a} and friends), you can use {ri / ra} or the wonderful brika'i {no'a=
}:
> {mi djuno lo du'u  *lo do pendo* cu djica lo nu  *[ri / lo no'a ku]*ponse=
 lo gerku}
> =3D "I know that [ your friend wants [ he has/possesses a/the dog ] ]"
>
> In the above sentence, both "ri" and "lo no'a ku" refers to "lo do pendo"=
.
>
> =E2=80=A2 lo no'a (ku) =3D the x1 of the next outer bridi
> =E2=80=A2 lo se no'a (ku) =3D the x2 of the next outer bridi
> =E2=80=A2 lo te no'a (ku) =3D the x3 of the next outer bridi
>
> You can also use {lo bi'unai [selbri] (ku)} for refering back to somethin=
g=20
> previously mentioned that is/does [selbri]. For example, {lo bi'unai pend=
o=20
> (ku)} =3D "the/an aformentioned friend".
>
> mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><DIV>ki'e .ilmen.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>pamo'o</DIV>
<DIV>I have read through the Lojban Reference Grammer, but I haven't heard =
of this CLL you reference.&nbsp; In fact it appears to be the most frequent=
ly and authoritatively quoted reference on Lojban in these posts.&nbsp; Cou=
ld you point me to it please?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>remo'o</DIV>
<DIV>I'm new to here so I'm just now noticing a few things I intend to clea=
n up - and I'll start in this post.&nbsp; (specifically:&nbsp; using { }, a=
nd the more gramatically correct use of {.} in lo mi cmene when signing off=
)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>cimo'o</DIV>
<DIV>{vo'a} and friends refer only to the main bridi - je'e .ua</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>{ri/ra/ru} skip over some sumka'i (I think its just the personal sumka=
'i {mi/do/mi'o/do'o} and others of their ilk.&nbsp; However, I infer from y=
our reply that they may refer to sumti outside the sub-bridi.&nbsp; I think=
 got that mixed up with the rule where sumka'i could not refer to sumti out=
side a quote.&nbsp; - lo nabmi cu mulno</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>{no'a} .uasai When you mentioned it, I seemed to have a vague recollec=
tion, but I think I glossed over that one in the Referenece Guide because i=
t totally had not occured to me tha you could pair it up with a gadri and c=
onversion cmavo!&nbsp; I suppose you could do that with any brika'i right?&=
nbsp; As in {lo se broda} would be the x2 sumti of whatever bridi had been =
assigned to {broda}?&nbsp; That's mighty helpful indeed.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>pevyselmacysanso</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>mi'e .neit. mu'o</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>On Wednesday, April 23, 2014 7:07:11 AM UTC-4, Ilmen wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3Dgmail_quote>
<DIV text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">On 22/04/2014 18:12, neit wrote:<=
BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
<DIV dir=3Dltr>
<DIV>coi rodo</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>A good example that I'm trying to wrap my brain around is the followin=
g:&nbsp; Suppose I want to say, "Who wants my dog?"&nbsp; bau la lojban - .=
i ma djica lo nu ____ ponse lo mi gerku</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I want a sumka'i in the ____ to refer to the "ma" in the main bridi.&n=
bsp; How can I do that?&nbsp; Can I use the reflexive sumka'i vo'a?&nbsp; (=
.i ma djica lo nu vo'a ponse lo mi gerku)?&nbsp; Or do those reflexive sumk=
a'i only refer to their native bridi, or can they "reach-out" and refer to =
the main bridi of which they are a part?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>ki'e pu'o sidju</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>mi'e neit mu'o<BR></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>{vo'a} always refers ba=
ck to the first sumti of the main (=3D outmost) bridi of the sentence. Ther=
efore, {vo'a} is perfecty fine in this sentence:<BR><BR>{ma djica lo nu vo'=
a ponse lo mi gerku}<BR><BR>In this very case, {ri} probably works too, but=
 I'm not 100% sure, as {ri} doesn't work with some pronouns like {mi}, and =
the CLL doesn't provide a comprehensive list of the pronouns excluded by {r=
i}.<BR>Nevertheless I don't see any justifiable reason to preclude using {r=
i} from refering back to {ma}. :)<BR><BR><BR>As for the general question of=
 how to refer back to a sumti used in an outer bridi (but not in the main/o=
utermost one, for which you can use {vo'a} and friends), you can use {ri / =
ra} or the wonderful brika'i {no'a}:<BR>{mi djuno lo du'u&nbsp; <B>lo do pe=
ndo</B> cu djica lo nu&nbsp; <B>[ri / lo no'a ku]</B> ponse lo gerku}<BR>=
=3D "I know that [ your friend wants [ he has/possesses a/the dog ] ]"<BR><=
BR>In the above sentence, both "ri" and "lo no'a ku" refers to "lo do pendo=
".<BR><BR>=E2=80=A2 lo no'a (ku) =3D the x1 of the next outer bridi<BR>=E2=
=80=A2 lo se no'a (ku) =3D the x2 of the next outer bridi<BR>=E2=80=A2 lo t=
e no'a (ku) =3D the x3 of the next outer bridi<BR><BR>You can also use {lo =
bi'unai [selbri] (ku)} for refering back to something previously mentioned =
that is/does [selbri]. For example, {lo bi'unai pendo (ku)} =3D "the/an afo=
rmentioned friend".<BR><BR>mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o<BR><BR><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUO=
TE></div>

<p></p>

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