Received: from mail-yh0-f55.google.com ([209.85.213.55]:43638) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WdP6y-0000t2-Bn for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 12:15:14 -0700 Received: by mail-yh0-f55.google.com with SMTP id f10sf575519yha.20 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 12:15:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=KoLrJuEHxbTS2ya255PTAslRlkuOO2Zld6Lm+qqyQlk=; b=fVxFqh+Q4TXKcsLYYPMUYzktk2/xrt4LbbvQit44WexcV22At0h6kK8IaepLJtkaCR cFfhRJDbwa2EFHiuV00+cSDwKo2ztLTdJV2wsPyrVhoCJrUu/+ZgWCMbn3qps5q4gL6l w7+9W9pAH49BK5wjToirUDjYAJzZoBjP9SVy2NDOSgL/xn0CUYc5Hgz4Zm+qvClVpOGR 37FeVSSIlCRCCC1r2ty3xJQs8T5SvdQ4rwJtZfYQ+XpgX6lkgWq0xvSlB+zaiQru+wKI TcNJmFRQSw6rnOBp4w72uXsJjznoilbGnYDyYHlFJFFNswBdrC1FOGBgWPOvoJBdUdGT 9D4Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=KoLrJuEHxbTS2ya255PTAslRlkuOO2Zld6Lm+qqyQlk=; b=XaNuisdJZ2tZpmItISmZi4RwzTboGp89bJLNLHqanxbo/hI1y1Nsvf1iPvR1FtChjJ zIMu08zu5Ta1YwTML8mpivYTYZnUwcWX+wHLNL2VHWhtOTs3do/gakXt/bhtCtoT1eho HfXbr0KNy0a15XPtHVC4jGfJO0OWq4CZuJtCktKoXolM5bCsZLZ3tb8GEhlHlrB0PMHT cl7FHScerM1j/3fCCbb9oSDzDz9sOTcYcEUoFB0l43imOlsOvO4MIl4ZC42ts6Wi5aGc GnG8aHHb9SfRRAHS6PfY5KjAwVy4SOezIXorJg/4qjK7zhxjQR2uvAYcTc16bbR6e4u9 K5bg== X-Received: by 10.182.158.167 with SMTP id wv7mr37472obb.29.1398366901161; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 12:15:01 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.24.41 with SMTP id r9ls496851obf.32.gmail; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 12:14:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.182.158.167 with SMTP id wv7mr37470obb.29.1398366896018; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 12:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 12:14:55 -0700 (PDT) From: ".neit." To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <82b5a54c-fbd1-48a2-ac3b-012f6f1e0d5a@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <700717d1-6c0c-4b4c-a6d2-77d5401f0db5@googlegroups.com> <53579EDF.3010308@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] how do you use sumka'i to refer to an outer bridi? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kosmikconundrum@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_16_21655230.1398366895384" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_16_21655230.1398366895384 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable .o'anairu'e la'e la cylylyl. du la'e la lyrygyl. .i mi ca djuno lo du'u di'u =20 ra'unai pe'u ko skicu lo za'i mi selmalgli kei mi =20 mi'e .neit. mu'o On Wednesday, April 23, 2014 2:46:35 PM UTC-4, .neit. wrote:=20 > > ki'e .ilmen. > =20 > pamo'o > I have read through the Lojban Reference Grammer, but I haven't heard of= =20 > this CLL you reference. In fact it appears to be the most frequently and= =20 > authoritatively quoted reference on Lojban in these posts. Could you poi= nt=20 > me to it please? > =20 > remo'o > I'm new to here so I'm just now noticing a few things I intend to clean u= p=20 > - and I'll start in this post. (specifically: using { }, and the more= =20 > gramatically correct use of {.} in lo mi cmene when signing off) > =20 > cimo'o > {vo'a} and friends refer only to the main bridi - je'e .ua > =20 > {ri/ra/ru} skip over some sumka'i (I think its just the personal sumka'i= =20 > {mi/do/mi'o/do'o} and others of their ilk. However, I infer from your=20 > reply that they may refer to sumti outside the sub-bridi. I think got th= at=20 > mixed up with the rule where sumka'i could not refer to sumti outside a= =20 > quote. - lo nabmi cu mulno > =20 > {no'a} .uasai When you mentioned it, I seemed to have a vague=20 > recollection, but I think I glossed over that one in the Referenece Guide= =20 > because it totally had not occured to me tha you could pair it up with a= =20 > gadri and conversion cmavo! I suppose you could do that with any brika'i= =20 > right? As in {lo se broda} would be the x2 sumti of whatever bridi had= =20 > been assigned to {broda}? That's mighty helpful indeed. =20 > =20 > pevyselmacysanso > =20 > mi'e .neit. mu'o > =20 > On Wednesday, April 23, 2014 7:07:11 AM UTC-4, Ilmen wrote: > >> On 22/04/2014 18:12, neit wrote: >> >> coi rodo >> =20 >> A good example that I'm trying to wrap my brain around is the following:= =20 >> Suppose I want to say, "Who wants my dog?" bau la lojban - .i ma djica = lo=20 >> nu ____ ponse lo mi gerku >> =20 >> I want a sumka'i in the ____ to refer to the "ma" in the main bridi. Ho= w=20 >> can I do that? Can I use the reflexive sumka'i vo'a? (.i ma djica lo n= u=20 >> vo'a ponse lo mi gerku)? Or do those reflexive sumka'i only refer to th= eir=20 >> native bridi, or can they "reach-out" and refer to the main bridi of whi= ch=20 >> they are a part? >> =20 >> ki'e pu'o sidju >> =20 >> mi'e neit mu'o >> >> >> {vo'a} always refers back to the first sumti of the main (=3D outmost)= =20 >> bridi of the sentence. Therefore, {vo'a} is perfecty fine in this senten= ce: >> >> {ma djica lo nu vo'a ponse lo mi gerku} >> >> In this very case, {ri} probably works too, but I'm not 100% sure, as=20 >> {ri} doesn't work with some pronouns like {mi}, and the CLL doesn't prov= ide=20 >> a comprehensive list of the pronouns excluded by {ri}. >> Nevertheless I don't see any justifiable reason to preclude using {ri}= =20 >> from refering back to {ma}. :) >> >> >> As for the general question of how to refer back to a sumti used in an= =20 >> outer bridi (but not in the main/outermost one, for which you can use=20 >> {vo'a} and friends), you can use {ri / ra} or the wonderful brika'i {no'= a}: >> {mi djuno lo du'u *lo do pendo* cu djica lo nu *[ri / lo no'a ku]*pons= e lo gerku} >> =3D "I know that [ your friend wants [ he has/possesses a/the dog ] ]" >> >> In the above sentence, both "ri" and "lo no'a ku" refers to "lo do pendo= ". >> >> =E2=80=A2 lo no'a (ku) =3D the x1 of the next outer bridi >> =E2=80=A2 lo se no'a (ku) =3D the x2 of the next outer bridi >> =E2=80=A2 lo te no'a (ku) =3D the x3 of the next outer bridi >> >> You can also use {lo bi'unai [selbri] (ku)} for refering back to=20 >> something previously mentioned that is/does [selbri]. For example, {lo= =20 >> bi'unai pendo (ku)} =3D "the/an aformentioned friend". >> >> mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o >> >> >> --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_16_21655230.1398366895384 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
.o'anairu'e la'e la cylylyl. du la'e la lyrygyl.
.i mi ca djuno lo du'u di'u
 
ra'unai pe'u ko skicu lo za'i mi selmalgli kei mi
 
mi'e .neit. mu'o

On Wednesday, April 23, 2014 2:46:35 PM UTC-= 4, .neit. wrote:=20
ki'e .ilmen.
 
pamo'o
I have read through the Lojban Reference Grammer, but I haven't heard = of this CLL you reference.  In fact it appears to be the most frequent= ly and authoritatively quoted reference on Lojban in these posts.  Cou= ld you point me to it please?
 
remo'o
I'm new to here so I'm just now noticing a few things I intend to clea= n up - and I'll start in this post.  (specifically:  using { }, a= nd the more gramatically correct use of {.} in lo mi cmene when signing off= )
 
cimo'o
{vo'a} and friends refer only to the main bridi - je'e .ua
 
{ri/ra/ru} skip over some sumka'i (I think its just the personal sumka= 'i {mi/do/mi'o/do'o} and others of their ilk.  However, I infer from y= our reply that they may refer to sumti outside the sub-bridi.  I think= got that mixed up with the rule where sumka'i could not refer to sumti out= side a quote.  - lo nabmi cu mulno
 
{no'a} .uasai When you mentioned it, I seemed to have a vague recollec= tion, but I think I glossed over that one in the Referenece Guide because i= t totally had not occured to me tha you could pair it up with a gadri and c= onversion cmavo!  I suppose you could do that with any brika'i right?&= nbsp; As in {lo se broda} would be the x2 sumti of whatever bridi had been = assigned to {broda}?  That's mighty helpful indeed. 
 
pevyselmacysanso
 
mi'e .neit. mu'o
 
On Wednesday, April 23, 2014 7:07:11 AM UTC-4, Ilmen wrote:
On 22/04/2014 18:12, neit wrote:<= BR>
coi rodo
 
A good example that I'm trying to wrap my brain around is the followin= g:  Suppose I want to say, "Who wants my dog?"  bau la lojban - .= i ma djica lo nu ____ ponse lo mi gerku
 
I want a sumka'i in the ____ to refer to the "ma" in the main bridi.&n= bsp; How can I do that?  Can I use the reflexive sumka'i vo'a?  (= .i ma djica lo nu vo'a ponse lo mi gerku)?  Or do those reflexive sumk= a'i only refer to their native bridi, or can they "reach-out" and refer to = the main bridi of which they are a part?
 
ki'e pu'o sidju
 
mi'e neit mu'o

{vo'a} always refers ba= ck to the first sumti of the main (=3D outmost) bridi of the sentence. Ther= efore, {vo'a} is perfecty fine in this sentence:

{ma djica lo nu vo'= a ponse lo mi gerku}

In this very case, {ri} probably works too, but= I'm not 100% sure, as {ri} doesn't work with some pronouns like {mi}, and = the CLL doesn't provide a comprehensive list of the pronouns excluded by {r= i}.
Nevertheless I don't see any justifiable reason to preclude using {r= i} from refering back to {ma}. :)


As for the general question of= how to refer back to a sumti used in an outer bridi (but not in the main/o= utermost one, for which you can use {vo'a} and friends), you can use {ri / = ra} or the wonderful brika'i {no'a}:
{mi djuno lo du'u  lo do pe= ndo cu djica lo nu  [ri / lo no'a ku] ponse lo gerku}
= =3D "I know that [ your friend wants [ he has/possesses a/the dog ] ]"
<= BR>In the above sentence, both "ri" and "lo no'a ku" refers to "lo do pendo= ".

=E2=80=A2 lo no'a (ku) =3D the x1 of the next outer bridi
=E2= =80=A2 lo se no'a (ku) =3D the x2 of the next outer bridi
=E2=80=A2 lo t= e no'a (ku) =3D the x3 of the next outer bridi

You can also use {lo = bi'unai [selbri] (ku)} for refering back to something previously mentioned = that is/does [selbri]. For example, {lo bi'unai pendo (ku)} =3D "the/an afo= rmentioned friend".

mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o


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