Date: Fri, 2 May 2014 08:51:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: ".neit." <kosmikconundrum@gmail.com>
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Message-Id: <51fedff8-02bc-4f18-91c7-0d9cd6546315@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAO7tK2f3oimXroBRAqAxWDd-1ggi-q2-qJtAM6=GH2KhxXZOFg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f688df01-e81b-47f3-aa72-ea5504ca1ec8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAO7tK2f3oimXroBRAqAxWDd-1ggi-q2-qJtAM6=GH2KhxXZOFg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] {lo ka "attitudinal"}
MIME-Version: 1.0
Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 
	boundary="----=_Part_988_6231987.1399045906937"
X-Spam_score: -0.1
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

------=_Part_988_6231987.1399045906937
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Ah .xorxes.!  Every question I have, I turn around, and there you are with 
a handy answer!  It's an immense help.  Thank you!
 
In introspect, I'd say this comes down to {lo ka mi nintadni la .lojban. 
kei} I don't have a depth of familiarity with the emotive gismu like 
{cfipu}.  Instead, I've been familiarizing myself with the attitudinals as 
a means to express my feelings bau la .lojban.  As indicators they have a 
very flexible grammer, and no place structure to consider.  Perfect for {mi 
poi nintadni} to cut my teeth on.  Additionally, I like how you can 
compound the attitudinals and "construct" the feeling you're experincing 
from baser emotive elements.  It has an effect, on me at least, of 
increasing my awareness of what I feel.  I think this happens because I 
must articulate each piece of what I feel rather than stating a word that 
represents what I feel.  For these reasons, I have been relying heavily on 
attitudinals to express myself.  
 
I think when I become more familiar with the emotive gismu, and I have more 
practice with compound tanru and lujvo making, I'll likely have the same 
ability to construct what I feel to a satisfactory degree of articulation, 
with the benefits of being able to manipulate these compound feelings in 
bridi.
 
As for my assertion that attitudinals are more articulate.  It could just 
seem that way to me because {mi nintadni}, and I have experimented more 
with attitudinals than the emotive gismu.  To me it seems that I could 
combine and modify attitudinals ad infinitum to express emotive compounds 
whose meanings become more and more discrete with each added attitudinal or 
attitudinal compound.  It occurs to me that with lujvo, and tanru (and the 
ability to manipulate internal tanru components with grouping with 
{ke...ke'e}, linking other sumti with {be...bei...be'o}, and logically 
connecting components with jeks).  One could likely get the same or similar 
degree of articulation with bridi using the emotive gismu.  
 
Would you say that is your experience?
 
ke'u ki'e doi .xorxes.
mi'e .neit. mu'o

On Thursday, May 1, 2014 9:41:10 PM UTC-4, xorxes wrote:

>  On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 3:50 PM, .neit. <kosmikc...@gmail.com<javascript:>
> > wrote:
>
>>  coi rodo
>>  
>> .uanai .e'o So if I wanted to say {mi ca tarti lo ka _attitudinal_ kei}  
>> Would that be gramatical?  
>>
>  
> No, "ka ... kei" requires a bridi. 
>
>>  I ask because with the attitudinals, their scales, modifiers, 
>> categories and sheer compoundability, a speaker could articulate to a 
>> higher degree, his/her feelings than simply using brivla.  And given that, 
>> there are times when you would want to express a feeling in bridi form, 
>> which brivla fail to adequately specify.  I'm trying to get at a way of 
>> discussing an attitudinal compound in a bridi. 
>>
>  
> You could create a brivla out of the attitudinal, for example "mi tarti lo 
> ka ua zei nai". But I'm not sure I'd describe that as more articulate than 
> "mi tarti lo ka se cfipu". Maybe somewhat comparable to saying "I went 
> 'huh?'" vs "I acted confused".  
>  
>
>>  Could I assign the attitudinal compound to an assignable sumka'i using 
>> {goi} and discuss the attitudinal compound using that sumka'i? 
>>
>  
> No, you can only assign the referents of a sumti with goi. You could say 
> something like "ko'a goi la'e lu ua nai li'u"
>
  mu'o mi'e xorxes  
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

------=_Part_988_6231987.1399045906937
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><DIV>Ah .xorxes.!&nbsp; Every question I have, I turn arou=
nd, and there you are with a handy answer!&nbsp; It's an immense help.&nbsp=
; Thank you!</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In introspect, I'd say this comes down to {lo ka mi nintadni la .lojba=
n. kei} I don't have a depth of familiarity with the emotive gismu like {cf=
ipu}.&nbsp; Instead, I've been familiarizing myself with the attitudinals a=
s a means to express my feelings bau la .lojban.&nbsp; As indicators they h=
ave a very flexible grammer, and no place structure to consider.&nbsp; Perf=
ect for {mi poi nintadni} to cut my teeth on.&nbsp; Additionally, I like ho=
w you can compound the attitudinals and "construct" the feeling you're expe=
rincing from baser emotive elements.&nbsp; It has an effect, on me at least=
, of increasing my awareness of what I feel.&nbsp; I think this happens bec=
ause I must articulate each piece of what I feel rather than stating a word=
 that represents what I feel.&nbsp; For these reasons, I have been relying =
heavily on attitudinals to&nbsp;express myself.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I think when I become more familiar with the emotive gismu, and&nbsp;I=
 have more practice with compound tanru and lujvo making, I'll likely have =
the same ability to construct what I feel to a satisfactory degree of artic=
ulation, with the benefits of being able to manipulate these compound feeli=
ngs in bridi.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>As for my assertion that attitudinals are more articulate.&nbsp; It co=
uld just seem that way to me because {mi nintadni}, and I have experimented=
 more with attitudinals than the emotive gismu.&nbsp; To me it seems that I=
 could combine and modify attitudinals ad infinitum to express emotive comp=
ounds whose meanings become more and more discrete with each added attitudi=
nal or attitudinal compound.&nbsp; It occurs to me that with lujvo, and tan=
ru (and the ability to manipulate internal tanru components with grouping w=
ith {ke...ke'e}, linking other sumti with {be...bei...be'o}, and logically =
connecting components with jeks).&nbsp; One could likely get the same or si=
milar degree of articulation with bridi using the emotive gismu.&nbsp; </DI=
V>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Would you say that is your experience?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>ke'u ki'e doi .xorxes.</DIV>
<DIV>mi'e .neit. mu'o</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Thursday, May 1, 2014 9:41:10 PM UTC-4, xorxes wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3Dgmail_quote>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>
<DIV>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 3:50 PM, .neit. <SPAN dir=
=3Dltr>&lt;<A onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D'javascript:';return true;" onclic=
k=3D"this.href=3D'javascript:';return true;" href=3D"javascript:" target=3D=
_blank gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"B7hPBuYjOKwJ">kosmikc...@gmail.com</A>&gt;<=
/SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3Dgmail_quote>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>
<DIV>coi rodo</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>.uanai .e'o So if I wanted to say {mi ca tarti lo ka&nbsp;_attitudinal=
_ kei}&nbsp; Would that be gramatical?&nbsp; </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>No, "ka ... kei" requires a bridi.&nbsp;<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3Dgmail_quote>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>
<DIV>I ask because with the attitudinals, their scales, modifiers, categori=
es and sheer compoundability, a speaker could articulate to a higher degree=
, his/her feelings than simply using brivla.&nbsp; And given that, there ar=
e times when you would want to express a feeling in bridi form, which brivl=
a fail to adequately specify.&nbsp; I'm trying to get at a way of discussin=
g an attitudinal compound in a bridi.&nbsp;</DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>You could create a brivla out of the attitudinal, for example "mi tart=
i lo ka ua zei nai". But I'm not sure I'd describe that as more articulate =
than "mi tarti lo ka se cfipu". Maybe somewhat comparable to saying "I went=
 'huh?'" vs "I acted confused". &nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3Dgmail_quote>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>
<DIV>Could I assign the attitudinal compound to an assignable sumka'i using=
 {goi} and discuss the attitudinal compound using that sumka'i?&nbsp;</DIV>=
</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>No, you can only assign the referents of a sumti with goi. You could s=
ay something like "ko'a goi la'e lu ua nai li'u"</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></B=
LOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3Dgmail_quote>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>
<DIV>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>
<DIV>mu'o mi'e xorxes&nbsp;&nbsp;</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></div=
>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;Lojban Beginners&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lo=
jban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban-beginners@goo=
glegroups.com">lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginn=
ers">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br />

------=_Part_988_6231987.1399045906937--