Received: from mail-yh0-f58.google.com ([209.85.213.58]:49664) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WhQOh-0001Ny-8J for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 05 May 2014 14:26:19 -0700 Received: by mail-yh0-f58.google.com with SMTP id v1sf1905675yhn.13 for ; Mon, 05 May 2014 14:25:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=jhKRyvUJXPbvf+sJE5RFacUAoqNP0nAyU4g0OuETZc8=; b=i/uvWjPaCCuvUQ0HszGC0xjI9y8JUd1FgfD5CsX9fr3hejGY5yX3mbk0C1nTMbmuxv aHYAY6BgAoBY3FOVeGIiF3grGD/Gmx66JU1grXi2endRT87QIU2Th+wbPUXrAA4Xw4Cc xp8Y8WtK1La4b588RY9TcAAzj5kA/hhfRy+Ls+cTcuy8SMb4uL1AyYGO58jYS/7z8VHR xjINRyorkC+kpBx1nU3r0JIGOP51uWEyxwu3fFQpcPa23hqkOxsTjXefPtGLiwb+j8hO nkpo7r2YhZXlwO3G5xK+DcVbdZzhZxUGU+LNMWpaayqkYBVhidkuymqKgjau92KpXbG4 QfuQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=jhKRyvUJXPbvf+sJE5RFacUAoqNP0nAyU4g0OuETZc8=; b=osRXfE93bX8wT6H8GtARhD8o5H+ypwyqlwoSRNE23HEfygyIwKcUZQZYkWRN96F2tl zjfnL/h6hVLrH+1FacOvMTv6rppznPwmpxK54fHunHNyYHgGtJ0j01fjnCbfRc4o9OMA bpKDIvc0A/UfoD1kyvPOxfUggmBJM244DsMKvK44KPlry+JCtYBw9DY3aG5SKFM06h1I 1nxfz8bqG5Avh/OzZ+7fPKPkehG9eg82lEjHVzcQj8VTG8P9NMGMZUvUQQIeBOhWtGhG wjvg9kzy9Lk2+zzrliwdwZLUwLaqsSIjeCSZEAYXzDNhREd1WX42/RdmvSf/fNV1w/1s ESuw== X-Received: by 10.182.60.161 with SMTP id i1mr267obr.40.1399325154616; Mon, 05 May 2014 14:25:54 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.130.169 with SMTP id of9ls1435038obb.18.gmail; Mon, 05 May 2014 14:25:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.182.44.233 with SMTP id h9mr259obm.41.1399325152913; Mon, 05 May 2014 14:25:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 14:25:52 -0700 (PDT) From: ".neit." To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <53d22153-7aee-4184-996e-a2e2d785af26@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <51fedff8-02bc-4f18-91c7-0d9cd6546315@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] {lo ka "attitudinal"} MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kosmikconundrum@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_456_22792529.1399325152211" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_456_22792529.1399325152211 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 .ua bu'o So a long attitudinal compound would come across as more of an "outpouring" than an "articulated description"? For example, a scenario I see this applying to: You approach a friend who is visibly upset. {.i sei do cusku se'u cei broda pei .i sei lo do pendo cu cusku se'u cei brode .uinai .i broda .uinai pei .i brode .uinai ga'inai le'onai ro'i .eisai ro'a .a'o bu'onai .iu be'u} (Is that a fair way to set up dialogue? Or would {sei zo'e cusku se'u} be considered a sumti and therefore be assigned to the {ko'a / fo'a} series?) Would an appropriate response be something like: {.i broda mu'i ma do cinmo la'e di'u goi ko'a} <-- How's that for preping the attitudinal for use in bridi discussion? After which your friend would begin to explain her outburst using bridi, (gismu, tanru and their forms, lujvo, and of course, the other UI cmavo of which you spoke)? I'm trying to understand the use of longer attitudinal compounds in everyday interaction. I believe I understand the use of attitudinals as quick expressions, but the use of longer compounds seemed to me to have the advantage of greater degrees of emotive specificity. After your response, I believe such compounds aren't really there for specificity, rather they allow one to still emote their feelings "quickly" without much of a nod toward specificity. It's really more of an outpouring, and the specificity will come in bridi explanation. It just seemed (past tense) that with 58 attitudinals, modifiers, scales etc, with very loose grammer, one should be able to reach more specific corners of semantic space than with a similar number of gismu having a more structurned grammer. This I thought, was the advantage of compound attitudinals, but I had forgotten how the 54 or so emotional gismu can be combined in tanru, using logical and non-logical connetives, conversion cmavo, abstractions, lujvo, sumtcita, tenses, and the like, all add a higher degree of specificity. I suppose, as you stated, that the defining charactaristic of attitudinals (compound or otherwise) is their loose grammer, permitting easy expression without much rational thought. Specificity is better left to bridi discussion. On Friday, May 2, 2014 4:06:54 PM UTC-4, xorxes wrote: > > This is what the Wikipedia article on "Emotion" says: > > << > > [...] Emotions are brief in duration and consist of a coordinated set of > responses, which may include verbal, physiological > , behavioural , and neural > mechanisms.[...] > > Emotion can be differentiated from a number of similar constructs within > the field of affective neuroscience > :[6] > > - *Feelings * are best > understood as a subjective representation > of emotions, private to the individual experiencing them. > - *Moods * are diffuse affective > states that generally last for much longer durations than emotions and are > also usually less intense than emotions. > > >> > > I would say interjections are best suited to express emotions ("brief in > duration"). If what someone wants is to explain their feelings, or describe > their mood, then it seems to me they are better off with regular sentences. > An interjection is a spontaneous and almost automatic verbal response, not > a thought out dissection of your current mood. I'm not saying you can't use > UIs to give a detailed and exhaustive description of your present feelings > if that's what you want to do, but I don't think that's their function, nor > that they are the best tool to do that. > > (It's also worth remembering that selma'o UI contains many other things > besides interjections to express emotion, such as evidentials, discourse > markers, modality markers and so on.) > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > > On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 12:51 PM, .neit. > > wrote: > >> Ah .xorxes.! Every question I have, I turn around, and there you are >> with a handy answer! It's an immense help. Thank you! >> >> In introspect, I'd say this comes down to {lo ka mi nintadni la .lojban. >> kei} I don't have a depth of familiarity with the emotive gismu like >> {cfipu}. Instead, I've been familiarizing myself with the attitudinals as >> a means to express my feelings bau la .lojban. As indicators they have a >> very flexible grammer, and no place structure to consider. Perfect for {mi >> poi nintadni} to cut my teeth on. Additionally, I like how you can >> compound the attitudinals and "construct" the feeling you're experincing >> from baser emotive elements. It has an effect, on me at least, of >> increasing my awareness of what I feel. I think this happens because I >> must articulate each piece of what I feel rather than stating a word that >> represents what I feel. For these reasons, I have been relying heavily on >> attitudinals to express myself. >> >> I think when I become more familiar with the emotive gismu, and I have >> more practice with compound tanru and lujvo making, I'll likely have the >> same ability to construct what I feel to a satisfactory degree of >> articulation, with the benefits of being able to manipulate these compound >> feelings in bridi. >> >> As for my assertion that attitudinals are more articulate. It could just >> seem that way to me because {mi nintadni}, and I have experimented more >> with attitudinals than the emotive gismu. To me it seems that I could >> combine and modify attitudinals ad infinitum to express emotive compounds >> whose meanings become more and more discrete with each added attitudinal or >> attitudinal compound. It occurs to me that with lujvo, and tanru (and the >> ability to manipulate internal tanru components with grouping with >> {ke...ke'e}, linking other sumti with {be...bei...be'o}, and logically >> connecting components with jeks). One could likely get the same or similar >> degree of articulation with bridi using the emotive gismu. >> >> Would you say that is your experience? >> >> ke'u ki'e doi .xorxes. >> mi'e .neit. mu'o >> >> On Thursday, May 1, 2014 9:41:10 PM UTC-4, xorxes wrote: >> >>> On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 3:50 PM, .neit. wrote: >>> >>>> coi rodo >>>> >>>> .uanai .e'o So if I wanted to say {mi ca tarti lo ka _attitudinal_ >>>> kei} Would that be gramatical? >>>> >>> >>> No, "ka ... kei" requires a bridi. >>> >>>> I ask because with the attitudinals, their scales, modifiers, >>>> categories and sheer compoundability, a speaker could articulate to a >>>> higher degree, his/her feelings than simply using brivla. And given that, >>>> there are times when you would want to express a feeling in bridi form, >>>> which brivla fail to adequately specify. I'm trying to get at a way of >>>> discussing an attitudinal compound in a bridi. >>>> >>> >>> You could create a brivla out of the attitudinal, for example "mi tarti >>> lo ka ua zei nai". But I'm not sure I'd describe that as more articulate >>> than "mi tarti lo ka se cfipu". Maybe somewhat comparable to saying "I went >>> 'huh?'" vs "I acted confused". >>> >>> >>>> Could I assign the attitudinal compound to an assignable sumka'i >>>> using {goi} and discuss the attitudinal compound using that sumka'i? >>>> >>> >>> No, you can only assign the referents of a sumti with goi. You could say >>> something like "ko'a goi la'e lu ua nai li'u" >>> >> mu'o mi'e xorxes >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban-beginne...@googlegroups.com . >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-b...@googlegroups.com >> . >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_456_22792529.1399325152211 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
.ua bu'o
 
So a long attitudinal compound would come across as more of an "outpou= ring" than an "articulated description"?  For example, a scenario I se= e this applying to:  You approach a friend who is visibly upset.
 
{.i sei do cusku se'u cei broda pei
.i sei lo do pendo cu cusku se'u cei brode .uinai
.i broda .uinai pei
.i brode .uinai ga'inai le'onai ro'i .eisai ro'a .a'o bu'onai .iu be'u= }
(Is that a fair way to set up dialogue?  Or would {sei zo'e cusku= se'u} be considered a sumti and therefore be assigned to the {ko'a / fo'a}= series?)
 
Would an appropriate response be something like:
 
{.i broda mu'i ma do cinmo la'e di'u goi ko'a} <-- How's that for p= reping the attitudinal for use in bridi discussion?
 
After which your friend would begin to explain her outburst using brid= i, (gismu, tanru and their forms, lujvo, and of course, the other UI cmavo = of which you spoke)?  I'm trying to understand the use of longer attit= udinal compounds in everyday interaction.  I believe I understand the = use of attitudinals as quick expressions, but the use of longer compounds s= eemed to me to have the advantage of greater degrees of emotive specificity= .  After your response, I believe such compounds aren't really there f= or specificity, rather they allow one to still emote their feelings "quickl= y" without much of a nod toward specificity.  It's really more of an o= utpouring, and the specificity will come in bridi explanation.  It jus= t seemed (past tense) that with 58 attitudinals, modifiers, scales etc, wit= h very loose grammer, one should be able to reach more specific corners of = semantic space than with a similar number of gismu having a more structurne= d grammer.  This I thought, was the advantage of compound attitudinals= , but I had forgotten how the 54 or so emotional gismu can be combined in t= anru, using logical and non-logical connetives, conversion cmavo, abstracti= ons, lujvo, sumtcita, tenses, and the like, all add a higher degree of spec= ificity. 
 
I suppose, as you stated, that the defining charactaristic of attitudi= nals (compound or otherwise) is their loose grammer, permitting easy expres= sion without much rational thought.  Specificity is better left to bri= di discussion.

On Friday, May 2, 2014 4:06:54 PM UTC-4, xorxes wrote:

This is what the Wikipedia article on "Emotion" says:=20

<<

[...] Emotions are= brief in duration and consist of a coordinated set of responses, which may= include verbal, physiological, behavioural, and neural mechanisms.[...]

Emotion can be dif= ferentiated from a number of similar constructs within the field of affective neuroscience:[6]

  • Feelings are best understo= od as a subjective representation of emotio= ns, private to the individual experiencing them.
  • Moods are diffuse affective states that general= ly last for much longer durations than emotions and are also usually less i= ntense than emotions.
>>

I would say interjections are best suited to express emotions ("brief = in duration"). If what someone wants is to explain their feelings, or descr= ibe their mood, then it seems to me they are better off with regular senten= ces. An interjection is a spontaneous and almost automatic verbal response,= not a thought out dissection of your current mood. I'm not saying you can'= t use UIs to give a detailed and exhaustive description of your present fee= lings if that's what you want to do, but I don't think that's their functio= n, nor that they are the best tool to do that.

(It's also worth remembering that selma'o UI contains many other thing= s besides interjections to express emotion, such as evidentials, discourse = markers, modality markers and so on.)

mu'o mi'e xorxes



On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 12:51 PM, .neit. <kosmikc...@gmail.com><= /SPAN> wrote:
Ah .xorxes.!  Every question I have, I turn around, and there you= are with a handy answer!  It's an immense help.  Thank you!
 
In introspect, I'd say this comes down to {lo ka mi nintadni la .lojba= n. kei} I don't have a depth of familiarity with the emotive gismu like {cf= ipu}.  Instead, I've been familiarizing myself with the attitudinals a= s a means to express my feelings bau la .lojban.  As indicators they h= ave a very flexible grammer, and no place structure to consider.  Perf= ect for {mi poi nintadni} to cut my teeth on.  Additionally, I like ho= w you can compound the attitudinals and "construct" the feeling you're expe= rincing from baser emotive elements.  It has an effect, on me at least= , of increasing my awareness of what I feel.  I think this happens bec= ause I must articulate each piece of what I feel rather than stating a word= that represents what I feel.  For these reasons, I have been relying = heavily on attitudinals to express myself. 
 
I think when I become more familiar with the emotive gismu, and I= have more practice with compound tanru and lujvo making, I'll likely have = the same ability to construct what I feel to a satisfactory degree of artic= ulation, with the benefits of being able to manipulate these compound feeli= ngs in bridi.
 
As for my assertion that attitudinals are more articulate.  It co= uld just seem that way to me because {mi nintadni}, and I have experimented= more with attitudinals than the emotive gismu.  To me it seems that I= could combine and modify attitudinals ad infinitum to express emotive comp= ounds whose meanings become more and more discrete with each added attitudi= nal or attitudinal compound.  It occurs to me that with lujvo, and tan= ru (and the ability to manipulate internal tanru components with grouping w= ith {ke...ke'e}, linking other sumti with {be...bei...be'o}, and logically = connecting components with jeks).  One could likely get the same or si= milar degree of articulation with bridi using the emotive gismu. 
 
Would you say that is your experience?
 
ke'u ki'e doi .xorxes.
mi'e .neit. mu'o

On Thursday, May 1, 2014 9:41:10 PM UTC-4, xorxes wrote:
On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 3:50 PM, .neit. <kosmikc...@gmail.com> wrote:
coi rodo
 
.uanai .e'o So if I wanted to say {mi ca tarti lo ka _attitudinal= _ kei}  Would that be gramatical? 
 
No, "ka ... kei" requires a bridi. 
I ask because with the attitudinals, their scales, modifiers, categori= es and sheer compoundability, a speaker could articulate to a higher degree= , his/her feelings than simply using brivla.  And given that, there ar= e times when you would want to express a feeling in bridi form, which brivl= a fail to adequately specify.  I'm trying to get at a way of discussin= g an attitudinal compound in a bridi. 
 
You could create a brivla out of the attitudinal, for example "mi tart= i lo ka ua zei nai". But I'm not sure I'd describe that as more articulate = than "mi tarti lo ka se cfipu". Maybe somewhat comparable to saying "I went= 'huh?'" vs "I acted confused".  
 
Could I assign the attitudinal compound to an assignable sumka'i using= {goi} and discuss the attitudinal compound using that sumka'i? 
=
 
No, you can only assign the referents of a sumti with goi. You could s= ay something like "ko'a goi la'e lu ua nai li'u"
mu'o mi'e xorxes  

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