Received: from mail-ob0-f187.google.com ([209.85.214.187]:50277) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WvoHb-0006aw-GW for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 14 Jun 2014 06:46:26 -0700 Received: by mail-ob0-f187.google.com with SMTP id nu7sf806304obb.24 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2014 06:46:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=3S0IUXptXBfAI1xO/JWdOQOS5C7tlnguk1akEE2TO1M=; b=bIr7RMHQxLAKiLL2br5aPUSd7r5bH3xzaR92YAzGCCdFfqI9Wx3uASIX5EqA+IKzwT ySYin7e0wRFlUDQz7XYrhztjKwENSEhuMhyHZYornJEyBTjEsPXJWeh2guLqlrVUtmcX oTIxIcVoX0Rpe4IQ9xdin1NlDYxvwJITmmWxc3l7zaLpmcLkFr0+5mhj8Q6akIsBYOQn ks0yvUcVfv5rfQcXWmiiuPaG01kLpnuPEjSCDg7JmbGyirFzLw0+MRRqe7REBPoVn6UL 46BOb4olqSjmg3oIHvkBxJu44gGa/lTL1jtlkIupQtw0GJV6BwAZsKd6J7FYPVM7RNuX f3OQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=3S0IUXptXBfAI1xO/JWdOQOS5C7tlnguk1akEE2TO1M=; b=MhA5S8oUVptGEG7OMrPe4vh3FhQ0no+sO5WqWRVkXs1aKlBA8/6MVXPt9TJvpiumP2 azYw9b04+TBV1en2uvy67Asra/DEUfIKl2GPUlVDlWEM43H4h3FC+xicW5qFvaQMcFBv zX0DEFiG52vvTkhaBVl271BBKq2KdzXR8gOwr3HsRgh11J7AEHxEVRCUBMlOe2A+CDja f/hc1ocIMR/RtJUqwUcxGC3UB5OP4/ELOgV6VulxvQi7w9xXG9HzZLha4tgFduL7AGiz iDineLrTlMUJIfXyEawLoiZgKVKXjzqrgTe/B9jWM4kI/ixjEyo1gusS40lTV0oCbz5f KlXw== X-Received: by 10.140.80.137 with SMTP id c9mr10295qgd.16.1402753565339; Sat, 14 Jun 2014 06:46:05 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.96.201 with SMTP id k67ls3775278qge.22.gmail; Sat, 14 Jun 2014 06:46:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.236.128.112 with SMTP id e76mr279707yhi.38.1402753564368; Sat, 14 Jun 2014 06:46:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qa0-f50.google.com (mail-qa0-f50.google.com [209.85.216.50]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ci7si1442819qcb.1.2014.06.14.06.46.03 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 14 Jun 2014 06:46:03 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: none (google.com: ross@rossogilvie.id.au does not designate permitted sender hosts) client-ip=209.85.216.50; Received: by mail-qa0-f50.google.com with SMTP id m5so5221846qaj.9 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2014 06:46:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlaD2JzjrAw+tSGQWKOs9/EOENVIEoOM5UUsjCQYXhTUv8gFfNLBm7AxaYfFOnlzNsbQUkL X-Received: by 10.140.31.196 with SMTP id f62mr11104651qgf.59.1402753563685; Sat, 14 Jun 2014 06:46:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.96.87.5 with HTTP; Sat, 14 Jun 2014 06:45:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [58.109.74.152] In-Reply-To: References: From: Ross Ogilvie Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2014 23:45:33 +1000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: {konju} and its place structure To: lojban-beginners X-Original-Sender: ross@rossogilvie.id.au X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: ross@rossogilvie.id.au does not designate permitted sender hosts) smtp.mail=ross@rossogilvie.id.au Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113a6530df11ed04fbcc0393 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a113a6530df11ed04fbcc0393 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 lo tarci jadni cu te konju fi lo xisyjbenunsla tricu The star is the tip of the Christmas tree. -- Ross On 13 June 2014 23:43, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > How to fill konju3 then? > > As for {pirmidi} I just stole this word from Loglan once. > > > 2014-06-13 7:40 GMT+04:00 Ross Ogilvie : > > Getting my math nerd on, there's no reason the region has to be connected, >> or has to be embedded in R^N for that matter, but the idea is right. The >> formal definition is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cone_%28topology%29 . >> If you wanted a predicate for a general cone like this, I'd go with: x1 is >> a cone with base x2 and vertex x3. Obviously you could swap the last two >> places, but this way it's more compatible with the current konju and also >> allows you to easily specify the type of cone, eg >> 1) lo konju be lo cukla >> a circular cone >> >> 2) lo konju be lo cibjgatai >> a triangular pyramid >> >> Compare also to {pirmidi}. >> >> -- Ross >> >> >> On 13 June 2014 00:06, wrote: >> >>> The definition more prevalent in higher math is: the object created by >>> taking a connected region in N dimensions, and a point outside that region >>> in N+1 dimensions, and including all lines between that point and any point >>> in the region. I would consider that the "standard" definition. Both of >>> yours are special cases where N=2 and the region is circular. Pyramids and >>> ellipsoidal cones are also legit cones. >>> >>> >>> On Friday, May 23, 2014 4:00:01 PM UTC-4, la gleki wrote: >>> >>>> There are two main definitions of "cone": >>>> 1. (geometry) A surface of revolution formed by rotating a segment of a >>>> line around another line that intersects the first line. >>>> 2. (geometry) A solid of revolution formed by rotating a triangle >>>> around one of its altitudes. >>>> >>>> I think neither meaning of "cone" reflects {konju}. I think {konju} >>>> describes a *segment* of a line (possibly infinite thus identical to a line >>>> in such case) revolving around another linear segment thus forming a >>>> *surface*. As for konju1 it describes an object (possibly immaterial) with >>>> *a property* of such cone-ness. >>>> >>>> This explains why only vertex is specified. but konju2 seems to be >>>> superflous then since it is not always necessary. >>>> >>>> >>>> 2014-05-23 12:11 GMT+04:00 Gleki Arxokuna : >>>> >>>> The definition of {konju} is rather cryptic. >>>>> >>>>> x1 is a cone [shape/form] of material x2 with vertex x3. Also ellipse, >>>>> ellipsoid (= konclupa). See also jesni, djine, sovda, kojna, jganu. >>>>> >>>>> "Cone" is this object: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/File:PovCone.jpg >>>>> either only the surface of an object made after the revolution of a >>>>> triangle. That's why konju3 seems strange. Why only vertex is defined? >>>>> >>>>> Definitely cone it's not an ellipse. >>>>> >>>>> Could you please explain this? >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a113a6530df11ed04fbcc0393 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
lo tarci jadni cu te konju fi lo xisyjbenunsla t= ricu

The star is the tip of the Christmas tree.

-= - Ross


On 13 June 2014 23:43, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com= > wrote:
How to fill konju3 then?

As for {pirmid= i} I just stole this word from Loglan once.


2014-06-13 7:40 GMT+04:00 Ross Og= ilvie <ross@rossogilvie.id.au>:

Getting my math nerd on, there's no reason the region has to be conn= ected, or has to be embedded in R^N for that matter, but the idea is right.= The formal definition is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cone_%28topolo= gy%29 . If you wanted a predicate for a general cone like this, I'd= go with: x1 is a cone with base x2 and vertex x3. Obviously you could swap= the last two places, but this way it's more compatible with the curren= t konju and also allows you to easily specify the type of cone, eg
1) lo konju be lo cukla
a circular cone

2) lo k= onju be lo cibjgatai
a triangular pyramid

Compare als= o to {pirmidi}.

-- Ross
=


On 13 June 2014 00:06, <len.budney@= gmail.com> wrote:
The definition more prevalent in higher math is: the objec= t created by taking a connected region in N dimensions, and a point outside= that region in N+1 dimensions, and including all lines between that point = and any point in the region. I would consider that the "standard"= definition. Both of yours are special cases where N=3D2 and the region is = circular. Pyramids and ellipsoidal cones are also legit cones.


On Friday, May 23, 2014 4:00:01 PM UTC-4, la gleki wrote:
There are two main definitions of "cone":
1. (geom= etry) A surface of revolution formed by rotating a segment of a line around= another line that intersects the first line.
2. (geometry) A sol= id of revolution formed by rotating a triangle around one of its altitudes.=

I think neither meaning of "cone" reflects {k= onju}. I think {konju} describes a *segment* of a line (possibly infinite t= hus identical to a line in such case) revolving around another linear segme= nt thus forming a *surface*. As for konju1 it describes an object (possibly= immaterial) with *a property* of such cone-ness.

This explains why only vertex is specified.=C2=A0but ko= nju2 seems to be superflous then since it is not always necessary.


2014-05-23 12:11 GMT+04:00= Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com>:

The definition of {kon= ju} is rather cryptic.

x1 is a cone [shape/form] o= f material x2 with vertex x3. Also ellipse, ellipsoid (=3D konclupa). See a= lso jesni, djine, sovda, kojna, jganu.

either only the surf= ace of an object made after the revolution of a triangle. That's why ko= nju3 seems strange. Why only vertex is defined?

Definitely cone it's not an ellipse.

=
Could you please explain this?

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--
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=

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