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Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2014 14:29:21 -0600
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] kiwi fu'ivla vs. the morphology
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
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No idea, mainly because I wasn't aware that camxes made such a change, but
you can solve the confusion by spelling them {-ki,ui}, which would be
pronounced as intended under either. People asked a similar question about
my name, but unlike {iui}, {aio} sounds pretty much the same either way, so
my response was simply "it doesn't matter".


On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 2:12 PM, Alex Burka <durka42@gmail.com> wrote:

>  Yesterday, I went to the farmers' market and bought some kiwi berries.
> Then, I entered some stage-3 fu'ivla for kiwi fruits and kiwi berries (they
> are different, as I learned yesterday!) into jbovlaste. I spelled them
> {grutrkiui} and {jbarnkiui}. It may be relevant to note that there is
> already a stage-3.5 fu'ivla for kiwi bird, but spelled {cpirkivi}.
>
> Wuzzy raised a good question, which is whether my new fu'ivla {grutrkiui}
> is pronounced ?{grut,r,ki,ui} or ?{grut,r,kiu,i} (and similarly for the
> other one). Of course I intended the former pronunciation. And I think
> that's the correct one, given the current morphology. But it seems to me
> the answer would be different using the old CLL morphology. My reasoning is
> below. Do you agree?
>
> CLL version: it pretty clearly says in section 3.5 that "[w]hen more than
> two vowels occur together in Lojban, the normal pronunciation pairs vowels
> from the left into syllables". So in "iui", the first "iu" would be grouped
> together as a diphthong, leaving "i". There are some problems with this,
> but then again that's why we have a new morphology! Moving on...
>
> camxes version: from here
> <http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Morphology%3A+syllables>. If [kiu] were the
> second-to-last syllable, then bare [i] would be the last syllable, but that
> would be an empty onset. Empty onsets are filled by pauses, but that can
> only happen at the beginning of a word. Therefore, it can only be split
> into syllables as -[ki]-[ui]. QED(?).
> (Full disclosure: this explanation was constructed to fit the facts after
> testing to see how camxes parsed the word.)
>
> mu'o mi'e la durka
>
>  --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>


-- 
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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<div dir=3D"ltr">No idea, mainly because I wasn&#39;t aware that camxes mad=
e such a change, but you can solve the confusion by spelling them {-ki,ui},=
 which would be pronounced as intended under either. People asked a similar=
 question about my name, but unlike {iui}, {aio} sounds pretty much the sam=
e either way, so my response was simply &quot;it doesn&#39;t matter&quot;.<=
br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On S=
un, Sep 7, 2014 at 2:12 PM, Alex Burka <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:durka42@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">durka42@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> w=
rote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                <div>
                    Yesterday, I went to the farmers&rsquo; market and boug=
ht some kiwi berries. Then, I entered some stage-3 fu&rsquo;ivla for kiwi f=
ruits and kiwi berries (they are different, as I learned yesterday!) into j=
bovlaste. I spelled them {grutrkiui} and {jbarnkiui}. It may be relevant to=
 note that there is already a stage-3.5 fu&rsquo;ivla for kiwi bird, but sp=
elled {cpirkivi}.
                </div><div><br></div><div>Wuzzy raised a good question, whi=
ch is whether my new fu&#39;ivla {grutrkiui} is pronounced ?{grut,r,ki,ui} =
or ?{grut,r,kiu,i} (and similarly for the other one). Of course I intended =
the former pronunciation. And I think that&rsquo;s the correct one, given t=
he current morphology. But it seems to me the answer would be different usi=
ng the old CLL morphology. My reasoning is below. Do you agree?</div><div><=
br></div><div>CLL version: it pretty clearly says in section 3.5 that &ldqu=
o;[w]hen more than two vowels occur together in Lojban, the normal pronunci=
ation pairs vowels from the left into syllables&rdquo;. So in &ldquo;iui&rd=
quo;, the first &ldquo;iu&rdquo; would be grouped together as a diphthong, =
leaving &ldquo;i&rdquo;. There are some problems with this, but then again =
that&rsquo;s why we have a new morphology! Moving on&hellip;</div><div><br>=
</div><div>camxes version: from <a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Morph=
ology%3A+syllables" target=3D"_blank">here</a>. If [kiu] were the second-to=
-last syllable, then bare [i] would be the last syllable, but that would be=
 an empty onset. Empty onsets are filled by pauses, but that can only happe=
n at the beginning of a word. Therefore, it can only be split into syllable=
s as -[ki]-[ui]. QED(?).</div><div>(Full disclosure: this explanation was c=
onstructed to fit the facts after testing to see how camxes parsed the word=
.)</div><div><br></div><div>mu&rsquo;o mi&rsquo;e la durka</div><span class=
=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div>
                <div></div>
           =20

<p></p>

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et=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o =
mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi=
.luk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father=
. :D )<br>
</div>

<p></p>

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