Received: from mail-qg0-f61.google.com ([209.85.192.61]:51992) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XRoid-00057J-3h for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 13:42:24 -0700 Received: by mail-qg0-f61.google.com with SMTP id e89sf1099218qgf.16 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 13:42:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=pttc63nd5DQdxS7ql+CGENqJpkcVepGgyTfN1iYYr/0=; b=EawnW8BPALfQIj1/+8FUP767ZGcOFdgQVHJ4BW9VWPNI1BxC5NVKRjf5W19ecijC7/ 4eESwi47mtkE1c0o2d5dMn9e6dGVIEmUlDokI/rdClcQErRlO0+TenBHClAvyRcj3VCX KNpGqGJHXY/LM3BT+E/PBRe/wVW2GBXE072/xsGuNIOgYhzN2oNInBNzF342K9a3J4W8 /YPW0OzvrVwoWY+l9LY7GZt2JBMAzIaqwojBm9SsZ3NLUK8NnPZOgpQnUL9DyDWtm1gd GZjkiqD7w596+WSZEydmFwGeiFWhUgDYupAiHMW6E96eWgPLr2opZfWmJ7LXUOXsGJA9 hZMw== X-Received: by 10.51.17.69 with SMTP id gc5mr236053igd.0.1410381736589; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 13:42:16 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.142.5 with SMTP id rs5ls3572178igb.26.gmail; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 13:42:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.66.147.227 with SMTP id tn3mr27734030pab.4.1410381735612; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 13:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-x22c.google.com (mail-vc0-x22c.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22c]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id cd2si658066vdc.0.2014.09.10.13.42.15 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 10 Sep 2014 13:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22c as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22c; Received: by mail-vc0-f172.google.com with SMTP id hy10so5537996vcb.31 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 13:42:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.52.5.201 with SMTP id u9mr1911062vdu.85.1410381735373; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 13:42:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.219.1 with HTTP; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 13:41:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <2845747.BXNi2yFm3g@caracal> From: Jacob Errington Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2014 16:41:55 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] ma xe fanva zoigy.Dial 911.gy. To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: nictytan@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22c as permitted sender) smtp.mail=nictytan@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf3030c5e155b2c50502bc16f0 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --20cf3030c5e155b2c50502bc16f0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Using {klagau} (or as I would prefer it {klacpe}) is not quite as vague as the English "Call 911!", which could be intended to result in something other than them coming. I'll discuss this a bit later. As for dialing numbers in general, yes, it has to do with pressing some buttons in some order, but that's very low-level a way to think about it. I suspect most people operate on a level higher than "pressing buttons in an order" when calling someone. When I call someone, I'm thinking of a number (actually a group of numbers, but how people group them differs between cultures and even intraculturally) that I identify with the callee. That being said, and disregarding this number grouping problem, we can just use {la'e li} to get to the person or institution associated with the number. After all, that is the very purpose of la'e. Using {li} can lead to some abuse, as we must evaluate the expression thereafter. Therefore, someone could write {.i ko klacpe la'e li sonono su'i papa} equivalently to {.i ko klacpe la'e li sopapa}. Furthermore, using {li} lends itself to problems when we're talking about dialing special numbers such as "*69" or other numbers involving special characters. Therefore, this suggests that {me'o} is indeed more appropriate, since it is the commonly used way to refer to a character string as such, rather than as the interpretation thereof. (The latter case being handled by {li} as shown above.) Therefore one should write {.i ko klacpe la'e me'o sopapa}. Still, there's the issue of {klacpe} not being adequately vague to translate the English. Of course, we might just not care about vagueness here, and I for one would most often be content with just saying {.i ko klacpe la'e me'o sopapa} when emergencies occur. However, the focus of the English is not so much on the summoning of the police or emergency services, but rather on contacting them, the result of which is left to context or is unimportant. For this, I have no objections to {jorne}. Although it does seem metaphorical at first, we can see that the physical case is really just a special case of the so-called metaphorical one. As such, the reading I have of the definition of {jorne} is "jorne = x1 is in contact with/connected to x2 by x3." Gismu should be broad, and it would thus feel unlojbanic to me for us to arbitrarily restrict jorne to physical cases only, especially in the face of having no other adequate way of expressing the nonphysical cases. All in all, I would write {.i ko jorne la'e me'o sopapa}. .i mi'e la tsani mu'o On 10 September 2014 16:05, Ian Johnson wrote: > {ri} can be argued to grab {di'u} there, since it begins after {la'e > di'u}, is closed, and cannot be repeated to retrieve the same referent. > > mi'e la latro'a mu'o > > On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 11:19 AM, Jonathan Jones > wrote: > >> What do you think ri refers to in my statement? Because the intended >> referent was {la'edi'u}. >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 8:53 AM, Jonathan Jones >> wrote: >> >>> .ienai >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 8:10 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> zo ra enai zo ri >>>> >>>> 2014-09-10 18:08 GMT+04:00 Jonathan Jones : >>>> >>>>> On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 7:56 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >>>>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> ko jorne la'e li 911 >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> .i na nelci lonu do pilno zo jorne la'edi'u .iku'i radji'i.ei lodu'u >>>>> ri mapti >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> i zo aktygau cu su'oroi mapti >>>>>> >>>>>> 2014-09-10 17:51 GMT+04:00 Jonathan Jones : >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 7:38 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >>>>>>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> jorne >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ??? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2014-09-10 17:36 GMT+04:00 Jonathan Jones : >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 6:49 AM, Pierre Abbat >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The missing concept includes opening a file, accessing a webpage, >>>>>>>>>> opening a >>>>>>>>>> cupboard, opening a book, or accessing a memory location. Opening >>>>>>>>>> a cupboard >>>>>>>>>> is "kargau", but that's what you do to the door; I'm talking >>>>>>>>>> about what you do >>>>>>>>>> to the cupboard. Any suggestions? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I can't think of anything better than that, honestly. Is there any >>>>>>>>> language which uses a word that means something other than "open"? Can you >>>>>>>>> express the concept you're talking about in any language that you know, in >>>>>>>>> a dictionary definition way, as opposed to the list of examples you gave? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Going way off the deep end, the act of opening a, say, cardboard >>>>>>>>> box is basically transforming a hollow, convex cube into a concave... >>>>>>>>> hexahedron?... for the purposes of gaining access to what was the interior, >>>>>>>>> but that seems to me just a very esoteric and wordy way to convey the exact >>>>>>>>> same thing "opening a box". >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do >>>>>>>>> zo'o >>>>>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>> >>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com >>>>> . >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --20cf3030c5e155b2c50502bc16f0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Using {klagau} (or as I would prefer it {klacpe}) is not q= uite as vague as the English "Call 911!", which could be intended= to result in something other than them coming. I'll discuss this a bit= later.

As for dialing numbers in general, yes, it has to do with pr= essing some buttons in some order, but that's very low-level a way to t= hink about it. I suspect most people operate on a level higher than "p= ressing buttons in an order" when calling someone. When I call someone= , I'm thinking of a number (actually a group of numbers, but how people= group them differs between cultures and even intraculturally) that I ident= ify with the callee. That being said, and disregarding this number grouping= problem, we can just use {la'e li} to get to the person or institution= associated with the number. After all, that is the very purpose of la'= e.

Using {li} can lead to some abuse, as we must evaluate the expres= sion thereafter. Therefore, someone could write {.i ko klacpe la'e li s= onono su'i papa} equivalently to {.i ko klacpe la'e li sopapa}. Fur= thermore, using {li} lends itself to problems when we're talking about = dialing special numbers such as "*69" or other numbers involving = special characters. Therefore, this suggests that {me'o} is indeed more= appropriate, since it is the commonly used way to refer to a character str= ing as such, rather than as the interpretation thereof. (The latter case be= ing handled by {li} as shown above.) Therefore one should write {.i ko klac= pe la'e me'o sopapa}.

Still, there's the issue of {klacp= e} not being adequately vague to translate the English. Of course, we might= just not care about vagueness here, and I for one would most often be cont= ent with just saying {.i ko klacpe la'e me'o sopapa} when emergenci= es occur. However, the focus of the English is not so much on the summoning= of the police or emergency services, but rather on contacting them, the re= sult of which is left to context or is unimportant. For this, I have no obj= ections to {jorne}. Although it does seem metaphorical at first, we can see= that the physical case is really just a special case of the so-called meta= phorical one. As such, the reading I have of the definition of {jorne} is &= quot;jorne =3D x1 is in contact with/connected to x2 by x3." Gismu sho= uld be broad, and it would thus feel unlojbanic to me for us to arbitrarily= restrict jorne to physical cases only, especially in the face of having no= other adequate way of expressing the nonphysical cases.

All in all,= I would write {.i ko jorne la'e me'o sopapa}.

.i mi'e l= a tsani mu'o




On 10 September 2014 16:05, Ian Johnson <blindbr= avado@gmail.com> wrote:
{ri} can be argued to grab {di'u} there, since it be= gins after {la'e di'u}, is closed, and cannot be repeated to retrie= ve the same referent.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 11:19 AM, Jonathan Jones <= span dir=3D"ltr"><eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
=
What do you think ri refers to = in my statement? Because the intended referent was {la'edi'u}.
=


On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 8:53 AM, Jo= nathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
.ienai


On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 8:10 AM= , Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote= :
zo ra enai zo ri
=

2014-09= -10 18:08 GMT+04:00 Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 7:56 AM, Gleki Arxo= kuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
ko jorne la'e li 911

.i na nelci lonu do pilno zo jorne la&#= 39;edi'u .iku'i radji'i.ei lodu'u ri mapti
=C2=A0
i zo aktygau cu su'oroi mapti

2014-09-10 17:51 GMT+04:00 = Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>:
On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 7:38 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <= ;gleki.is.m= y.name@gmail.com> wrote:
jorne

???
=C2=A0
2014-09-10 17:36 GMT+04:00 Jonathan Jones <eyeonus= @gmail.com>:
On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 6:49 AM, Pierre Abbat &= lt;phma@bezitopo.org= > wrote:
The missing concept includes opening a file, accessing a webpage, opening a=
cupboard, opening a book, or accessing a memory location. Opening a cupboar= d
is "kargau", but that's what you do to the door; I'm talk= ing about what you do
to the cupboard. Any suggestions?
=C2=A0
I can't think of anything better than that, honestly. Is there any= language which uses a word that means something other than "open"= ;? Can you express the concept you're talking about in any language tha= t you know, in a dictionary definition way, as opposed to the list of examp= les you gave?

Going way off the dee= p end, the act of opening a, say, cardboard box is basically transforming a= hollow, convex cube into a concave... hexahedron?... for the purposes of g= aining access to what was the interior, but that seems to me just a very es= oteric and wordy way to convey the exact same thing "opening a box&quo= t;.

--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.=
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.=
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.


=
--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo piln= o be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Lu= ke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.=
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.=
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.


=
--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo piln= o be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Lu= ke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.=
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.=
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.=
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
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--20cf3030c5e155b2c50502bc16f0--