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Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 12:23:23 -0300
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] how to use {fancu}?
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
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On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 3:35 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com=
>
wrote:

> How to say e.g. "f(x) =3D (x + 1) (x =E2=88=92 1)" ? Should I use {fancu}=
 for that?
> If not how to use {fancu}?
> I want an example with all places of {fancu} filled.
>
> fancu =3D x1 is a function/single-valued mapping from domain x2 to range =
x3
> defined by expression/rule x4.
>
>
> E.g "f(x) =3D (x + 1) (x =E2=88=92 1)" where x>1
>
> fy fancu xy lo du'u xy zmadu li pa vau li vei xy su'i pa ve'o pi'i vei xy
> vu'u pa ve'o ?
>

We need to distinguish three cases:

(1) example of what the gimste says it means
(2) example of what "fancu" ought to mean
(3) example of actual usage

If you want (1), you could say:

 fy fancu lo'i mrena'u poi zmadu li pa lo'i mrena'u poi zmadu li no me'o
vei xy su'i pa ve'o pi'i vei xy vu'u pa ve'o

You want "me'o", not "li", for an expression. I'm assuming you meant it as
a function on the reals and not, for example on the integers. The domain of
the function is the set of values for which the function is defined. The
range is the set from which the function takes its values. In this case it
could also have been all the reals, even though the function never takes
negative values. lo'i mrena'u poi zmadu li no is the image, which has to be
included in the range. It doesn't say anywhere that "xy" is the variable
that will take its values from the domain, but using x as a variable is of
course a very common convention.

As for (2): It doesn't really make a lot of sense to me to have a place for
expression x4 in addition to a place for the function. It's as if "klama"
was defined as "x1 goes to x2 ... and has name x6". The place for the range
is also redundant. It's as if "jalge" was defined as "x1 is the result of
x2 among potential results x3", or something like that. "fancu" ought to
have just two places: "x1 is a function of x2". Your example would be: "fy
pe xy du li vei xy su'i pa ve'o pi'i vei xy vu'u pa ve'o", which doesn't
use "fancu", but you could also say fy fancu xy noi mrena'u gi'e zmadu li
pa". A more general use would be:

 lo jdima be lo seldi'a cu fancu lo ni sy se sabji jo'u lo ni sy se cpedu
 "The price of a good is a function of its supply and demand."

Finally (3), usage, is all over the place. An example from Tatoeba (just
because it's the first hit for "cu fancu" that I get from Google):

  ro da poi fancu lo nuncfa cu fancu lo nunfa'o
  Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.

But I don't really see how "fancu" can be "subject to". To me that says
that every thing that depends on a start, depends on having (or being?) an
end. "Being subject to" is more like "lifri". I would say: "ro da poi lifri
lo ka cfari cu lifri lo ka tolcfa".

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 3:35 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.name=
@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(20=
4,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">How t=
o say e.g. &quot;f(x) =3D (x=E2=80=89+=E2=80=891)=E2=80=89(x=E2=80=89=E2=88=
=92=E2=80=891)&quot; ? Should I use {fancu} for that? If not how to use {fa=
ncu}?<div>I want an example with all places of {fancu} filled.</div><div><b=
r></div><div><div>fancu =3D x1 is a function/single-valued mapping from dom=
ain x2 to range x3 defined by expression/rule x4.</div><div><br><br></div><=
/div><div>E.g &quot;f(x) =3D (x=E2=80=89+=E2=80=891)=E2=80=89(x=E2=80=89=E2=
=88=92=E2=80=891)&quot; where x&gt;1</div><div><br></div><div>fy fancu xy l=
o du&#39;u xy zmadu li pa vau li vei xy su&#39;i pa ve&#39;o pi&#39;i vei x=
y vu&#39;u pa ve&#39;o ?</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>We nee=
d to distinguish three cases:</div><div><br></div><div>(1) example of what =
the gimste says it=C2=A0means</div><div>(2) example of what &quot;fancu&quo=
t; ought to mean</div><div>(3) example of actual usage<br></div><div><br></=
div><div>If you want (1), you could say:</div><div><br></div><div><div>=C2=
=A0fy fancu lo&#39;i mrena&#39;u poi zmadu li pa lo&#39;i mrena&#39;u poi z=
madu li no me&#39;o vei xy su&#39;i pa ve&#39;o pi&#39;i vei xy vu&#39;u pa=
 ve&#39;o</div></div><div><br></div><div>You want &quot;me&#39;o&quot;, not=
 &quot;li&quot;, for an expression. I&#39;m assuming you meant it as a func=
tion on the reals and not, for example on the integers. The domain of the f=
unction is the set of values for which the function is defined. The range i=
s the set from which the function takes its values. In this case it could a=
lso have been all the reals, even though the function never takes negative =
values. lo&#39;i mrena&#39;u poi zmadu li no is the image, which has to be =
included in the range. It doesn&#39;t say anywhere that &quot;xy&quot; is t=
he variable that will take its values from the domain, but using x as a var=
iable is of course a very common convention.</div><div><br></div><div>As fo=
r (2): It doesn&#39;t really make a lot of sense to me to have a place for =
expression x4 in addition to a place for the function. It&#39;s as if &quot=
;klama&quot; was defined as &quot;x1 goes to x2 ... and has name x6&quot;. =
The place for the range is also redundant. It&#39;s as if &quot;jalge&quot;=
 was defined as &quot;x1 is the result of x2 among potential results x3&quo=
t;, or something like that. &quot;fancu&quot; ought to have just two places=
: &quot;x1 is a function of x2&quot;. Your example would be: &quot;fy pe xy=
 du li vei xy su&#39;i pa ve&#39;o pi&#39;i vei xy vu&#39;u pa ve&#39;o&quo=
t;, which doesn&#39;t use &quot;fancu&quot;, but you could also say fy fanc=
u xy noi mrena&#39;u gi&#39;e zmadu li pa&quot;. A more general use would b=
e:</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0lo jdima be lo seldi&#39;a cu fancu lo =
ni sy se sabji jo&#39;u lo ni sy se cpedu</div><div>=C2=A0&quot;The price o=
f a good is a function of its supply and demand.&quot;</div><div><br></div>=
<div>Finally (3), usage, is all over the place. An example from Tatoeba (ju=
st because it&#39;s the first hit for &quot;cu fancu&quot; that I get from =
Google):</div><div><br></div>=C2=A0 ro da poi fancu lo nuncfa cu fancu lo n=
unfa&#39;o<br>=C2=A0 Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to c=
essation.<div><br></div><div>But I don&#39;t really see how &quot;fancu&quo=
t; can be &quot;subject to&quot;. To me that says that every thing that dep=
ends on a start, depends on having (or being?) an end. &quot;Being subject =
to&quot; is more like &quot;lifri&quot;. I would say: &quot;ro da poi lifri=
 lo ka cfari cu lifri lo ka tolcfa&quot;.</div><div><br></div></div>mu&#39;=
o mi&#39;e xorxes</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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