Received: from mail-oa0-f58.google.com ([209.85.219.58]:50028) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XUa6g-0001rb-Rs for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 04:42:39 -0700 Received: by mail-oa0-f58.google.com with SMTP id n16sf185382oag.13 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 04:42:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=xMqWb+5JarUACLrIEwWVQ1CPK/gNh3szJ+GDi1oEXNU=; b=kpwMGVd+Sml9LZRME1dF2bHWcSrR3CUWfTr/83amYfBRp+IqLnxizonJqQzq5/rBKY 9Rr4LibhaYr9UgkTM8rJEkgtU2ooaz+a6dS9VPEU2z8u+ZNcxnt7wZrCM4b85+uYInhz 7WSyhfYN1r9QOMLxZOe6JWPSGMsIILJVDRnNpxwC/AXvl8N+xQqPrVSolXnkbADJU+sW PcGJZDy0BuKoi48fAMjeCjIoiExMEkJXRBQepWdmrPTnGd8CPOZZSeWYYXiXa1x552Hs LsjIeAfNXyfMHTbNp9MDlV7ahn6l2VJEXo4Ob9/SpMCcLvWC2TCJqjYKWsSZjsiMmJRq UgQQ== X-Received: by 10.182.70.98 with SMTP id l2mr600obu.28.1411040552458; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 04:42:32 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.60.42 with SMTP id e10ls608765obr.6.gmail; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 04:42:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.52.182.66 with SMTP id ec2mr3239841vdc.0.1411040550422; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 04:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x234.google.com (mail-qg0-x234.google.com [2607:f8b0:400d:c04::234]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t6si2296027qcd.0.2014.09.18.04.42.30 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 18 Sep 2014 04:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c04::234 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c04::234; Received: by mail-qg0-f52.google.com with SMTP id i50so870544qgf.39 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 04:42:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.229.65.135 with SMTP id j7mr7631757qci.22.1411040550232; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 04:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.96.50.167 with HTTP; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 04:42:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 05:42:30 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] {bilni}. How to use? It has been use only once! From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c04::234 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11339d22c2c7da0503557a04 X-Spam-Score: -0.9 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.9 X-Spam_score_int: -8 X-Spam_bar: / --001a11339d22c2c7da0503557a04 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 4:39 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > Okay, sorry for not explaining but I'm trying to fill all places with > LE-sumti, i.e. not with LA-sumti and not with pro-sumti. > That seems a bit nit-picky to me. I could probably come up with a bridi that means "National Guard", but that requires more effort than I felt like doing for a quick example. > I understand that sometimes it's not possible. > Is it? I can't think of any examples where only {la [blank]} would be able to go there. > Can you replace {la mertru} with {lo mertru}? > I don't see why not. > If yes, jbovlaste says it's a government of the US whereas it should be "a > governor of the US". However, if you think that turni1 is a government, > i.e. a system then it makes sense but then > {naku lo prenu ka'e turni} logically because {naku lo prenu ka'e ciste}. > turni1 is something which governs a populace a/o territory. It makes no distinguishment about whether that something is a person, system, or anything else which can govern. It is quite possible that in some instances, lo turni is a person, while in others, it is a system. mertru, on the other hand, means "the government of the US" because when the lujvo was created, the person making it obviously decided against including ciste for brevity's sake. Including ciste in the lujvo-making would have doubled the syllable count with no real benefit, as all it does is explicitly mark that it refers to a system, which anyone who knows that the U.S. is a republic would already know. Lujvo are /not/ required to mean exactly the same thing that the tanru they are built from would mean. On that note, the office of the president of the U.S. is {lo merja'a}. > Another question: should bilni1 be an integral part of bilni2? Is it a > part of American government born by it and now a part of it or merely an > entity that gasnu or se jalge it? > The National Guard is a part of the military, which is a part of the executive branch of the government. One could therefore argue that, in this particular example, bilni1 is a subset of bilni2, but I won't go so far as to say that's always the case with every use of bilni. > 2014-09-18 14:21 GMT+04:00 Jonathan Jones : > >> At a guess: >> >> la.nacynyl.gard. bilni la mertru loka snura >> >> On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 3:49 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Strange but I can see that {bilni} has been used only once in the corpus. >>> There are more examples of {bilni} in lojban mriste but its x3 is never >>> filled. >>> >>> bilni = x1 is military/regimented/is strongly organized/prepared by >>> system x2 for purpose x3. >>> >>> >>> It has a place structure different from {girzu} and I dont know how to >>> use it. >>> Is bilni1 a soldier or an army? >>> I need either an example with all places filled or I'll just ignore this >>> word. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11339d22c2c7da0503557a04 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On T= hu, Sep 18, 2014 at 4:39 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@g= mail.com> wrote:
Okay, sorry for not explaining but I'm trying to fill all plac= es with LE-sumti, i.e. not with LA-sumti and not with pro-sumti.

That seems a bit nit-picky to me. I could proba= bly come up with a bridi that means "National Guard", but that re= quires more effort than I felt like doing for a quick example.
=A0
= I understand that sometimes it's not possible.
=

Is it? I can't think of any examples where only {la= [blank]} would be able to go there.
=A0
Can you replace {la mertru} with {lo = mertru}?

I don't see why no= t.
=A0
<= div>If yes, jbovlaste says it's a government of the US whereas it shoul= d be "a governor of the US". However, if you think that turni1 is= a government, i.e. a system then it makes sense but then=A0
{nak= u lo prenu ka'e turni} logically because {naku lo prenu ka'e ciste}= .

turni1 is something which gov= erns a populace a/o territory. It makes no distinguishment about whether th= at something is a person, system, or anything else which can govern. It is = quite possible that in some instances, lo turni is a person, while in other= s, it is a system.

mertru, on the other hand, means "= ;the government of the US" because when the lujvo was created, the per= son making it obviously decided against including ciste for brevity's s= ake. Including ciste in the lujvo-making would have doubled the syllable co= unt with no real benefit, as all it does is explicitly mark that it refers = to a system, which anyone who knows that the U.S. is a republic would alrea= dy know. Lujvo are /not/ required to mean exactly the same thing that the t= anru they are built from would mean. On that note, the office of the presid= ent of the U.S. is {lo merja'a}.
=A0
Another question: should b= ilni1 be an integral part of bilni2? Is it a part of American government bo= rn by it and now a part of it or merely an entity that gasnu or se jalge it= ?

The National Guard is a part = of the military, which is a part of the executive branch of the government.= One could therefore argue that, in this particular example, bilni1 is a su= bset of bilni2, but I won't go so far as to say that's always the c= ase with every use of bilni.
=A0
=
2014-09-18 14:21 GMT+04:00 Jonathan Jones <eyeo= nus@gmail.com>:
At a guess:

la.nacynyl.gard. bilni la mertru loka s= nura

On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 3:49 AM, Gleki Arxokuna &l= t;gleki.is.= my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
Strange but I can see that {biln= i} has been used only once in the corpus.
There are more examples= of {bilni} in lojban mriste but its x3 is never filled.

bilni =3D x1 is military/regimented/is strongly organized/prepared b= y system x2 for purpose x3.


It has = a place structure different from {girzu} and I dont know how to use it.
Is bilni1 a soldier or an army?
I need either an example w= ith all places filled or I'll just ignore this word.
<= /div>

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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e&#= 39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(= Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lo= jban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.
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--001a11339d22c2c7da0503557a04--