Received: from mail-wg0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]:64065) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XUzE3-0007PD-9H for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 19 Sep 2014 07:32:01 -0700 Received: by mail-wg0-f61.google.com with SMTP id x13sf241334wgg.6 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2014 07:31:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=rnVWCmxfY8QHZyBrg8wg9NLq9QRMpeTdBiol0a8CoSc=; b=LmA3OIwZ7c++qd/yVYLbH8sgP3uJk8QIIrKB2wUnDH0scM7I5419YxSTsRnJNhyL3v CulMgPw9lKdmS0qYn1Hi2G7Xpc+xvobqe8t4zgzmC0QGsdwJtaLiVbt+vWub8S+/9+mb oJmcGsFZXrbnhbleUeMfGgQUAI657wzQqp+SAyvjkU+dT70xQDXyExIl6mrtCc86/lOL 5kYAdJwH55fnQFyucMh9MyDxz+tAaTXzyAf/XMhNw7M/E/HEuQOX1AFtKwjRRsQ7NIuF h9fIAAzHSL2GvfuFf/mFkC7k827r0H3HXIArIvKWA2E0fum5rVULUjs3L2u0rUIZWzID iv5Q== X-Received: by 10.180.99.164 with SMTP id er4mr49895wib.9.1411137108505; Fri, 19 Sep 2014 07:31:48 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.19.162 with SMTP id g2ls119477wie.38.canary; Fri, 19 Sep 2014 07:31:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.183.165 with SMTP id en5mr8740433wic.1.1411137107114; Fri, 19 Sep 2014 07:31:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22c.google.com (mail-wi0-x22c.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c05::22c]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j12si100449wie.2.2014.09.19.07.31.47 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 19 Sep 2014 07:31:47 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22c as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::22c; Received: by mail-wi0-f172.google.com with SMTP id hi2so2106157wib.11 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2014 07:31:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.188.70 with SMTP id fy6mr56898065wic.25.1411137105917; Fri, 19 Sep 2014 07:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.89.193 with HTTP; Fri, 19 Sep 2014 07:31:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <5076980.qB49T6XaTr@caracal> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 18:31:45 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] lamji4 From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22c as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c37b62ed7bf905036bf533 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a11c37b62ed7bf905036bf533 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable okay, thank you. i think vectors are {farna} and movements are {muvdu} and {klama} so i'm gonna choose "clause" sumti type for lamji4. i consider other uses as one kind of raising which is allowed in my current formalisation. 2014-09-19 18:22 GMT+04:00 Michael Turniansky : > Ah, okay, NOW I understand what your question is -- object vs. propert= y. > > (of course, I've always been very soft on this issue (strong typing of > sumti places) in pretty much all brivla. I believe that such restriction= s > aren't usually useful and just serve to limit the language in ways that i= t > shouldn't be limited) > > That being said, I think that directions (lo farna) can be thought of a= s > EITHER objects or properties. Think of vectors. I can think of them > either as being fully described by their endpoints (Let's go to my house) > or as an orientation plus distance (Let's go .5 kilometers NNE) Now, we > are not including a distance when discussing farna or equivalently ve > lamji, so we are actually describing a ray originating from where we are > and passing through that endpoint. This is equivalent to "Let's head > towards my house" or "Let's head NNE" The first is an example of Pierre'= s > construction, and the latter the ka-abstraction. (i.e. Pierre is saying > "in the direction of the West (of Spain) thing"), and I think both are > equally valid. > > --gejyspa > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 10:09 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > >> you said probably Pierre forgot to put {kei}. If so lamji4=3Dstici1 >> However, the other examples shows lamji4 =3D {lo ka ce'u ce'u purci}. >> >> The first example describes an object, the second one is a clause. >> Which one do you prefer? >> >> >> 2014-09-19 18:03 GMT+04:00 Michael Turniansky : >> >>> Again, I'm not sure what the conflict you see is, so that's why I am >>> asking you to clarify. >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 9:39 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Well, I just found this example in the corpus. So we have two >>>> conflicting views on how to fill it. If so what shall I do? >>>> What is your opinion on lamji4? >>>> >>>> 2014-09-19 17:35 GMT+04:00 Michael Turniansky : >>>> >>>>> I'm not asking about your original question. I'm asking about your >>>>> comment on Pierre's example that it "differs with other usage where >>>>> lamji4 was {lo ka ce'u ce'u purci}." >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 9:30 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >>>>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> My question: give me a meaningful plixau examples with all places of >>>>>> cimde filled with other than LA-sumti and pro-sumti. >>>>>> If you are saying that a place can be filled only with them please >>>>>> explcitely state that. >>>>>> A translation (not glossing) to English is required. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm working on new gimste with usage examples. Without usage the >>>>>> word or a te sumti doesnt exist for me. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 2014-09-19 17:09 GMT+04:00 Michael Turniansky >>>>>> : >>>>>> >>>>>>> Gleki, >>>>>>> Is your question one about usage as both spatial and temporal >>>>>>> dimensions? Because if so, lojban has no problem with that many ti= mes >>>>>>> things like that. "cimde" itself, for example, can be either measu= rement. >>>>>>> "ti" can be either "here" or "now". lidne can be referring either= to >>>>>>> something in a line, a time sequence, or even just an abstract math= ematical >>>>>>> concept. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Or am I missing the subject of your query? >>>>>>> ---gejyspa >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 2:52 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >>>>>>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This differs with other usage where lamji4 was {lo ka ce'u ce'u >>>>>>>> purci}. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> {la potygug cu maji la sangug lo ka stuzi vau lo ka ce'u ce'u stic= i >>>>>>>> vo'a}? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2014-05-08 20:29 GMT+04:00 Pierre Abbat : >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thursday, May 08, 2014 15:47:45 Gleki Arxokuna wrote: >>>>>>>>> > what would be the most useful example of lamji with the four >>>>>>>>> places filled >>>>>>>>> > in? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Don't know about the *most* useful, but here's one: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> la .potygug. lamji la .sangug. lo ka stuzi lo stici >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The definition doesn't clarify whether lo ve lamji cu farna lo >>>>>>>>> lamji lo se >>>>>>>>> lamji gi'ikau farna lo se lamji lo lamji. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> mu'omi'e .pier. >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> La sal en el mar es m=C3=A1s que en la sangre. >>>>>>>>> Le sel dans la mer est plus que dans le sang. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Googl= e >>>>>>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginner= s >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners= . >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, sen= d >>>>> an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.co= m >>>>> . >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com= . >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11c37b62ed7bf905036bf533 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
okay, thank you. i think vectors are {farna} and movements= are {muvdu} and {klama} so i'm gonna choose "clause" sumti t= ype for lamji4. i consider other uses as one kind of raising which is allow= ed in my current formalisation.

2014-09-19 18:22 GMT+04:00 Michael Turniansky <mtu= rniansky@gmail.com>:
=C2=A0 Ah, okay, NOW I understand what your question is -- =C2= =A0object vs. property.

=C2=A0 (of course, I've alwa= ys been very soft on this issue (strong typing of sumti places) in pretty m= uch all brivla. =C2=A0I believe that such restrictions aren't usually u= seful and just serve to limit the language in ways that it shouldn't be= limited)

=C2=A0 That being said, I think that dir= ections (lo farna) can be thought of as EITHER objects or properties. =C2= =A0Think of vectors. =C2=A0I can think of them either as being fully descri= bed by their endpoints (Let's go to my house) or as an orientation plus= distance (Let's go .5 kilometers NNE) =C2=A0Now, we are not including = a distance when discussing farna or equivalently ve lamji, so we are actual= ly describing a ray originating from where we are and passing through that = endpoint. =C2=A0This is equivalent to "Let's head towards my house= " or "Let's head NNE" =C2=A0The first is an example of P= ierre's construction, and the latter the ka-abstraction. =C2=A0(i.e. Pi= erre is saying "in the direction of the West (of Spain) thing"), = and I think both are equally valid.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa

=C2=A0=C2=A0
<= /div>
On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 10:09 AM, Gleki Arxokun= a <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
you said probably Pierre forgot to pu= t {kei}. If so lamji4=3Dstici1
However, the other examples shows lamji4= =3D=C2=A0{lo ka ce'u ce'u purci}.

The first example describes an object, the second one is a c= lause.
Which one do you prefer?

<= /span>

2014-09-19 18:03 GMT+04:00 Michael Turniansky = <mturniansky@= gmail.com>:
=C2=A0 Again, I'm not sure what the conflict you see is, so that'= s why I am asking you to clarify.

On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 9:39 AM, Gleki Arxo= kuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, I just found this example in= the corpus. So we have two conflicting views on how to fill it. If so what= shall I do?
What is your opinion on lamji4?

2014-09-19 17:35 GMT+0= 4:00 Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>:
=C2=A0 I'm not asking about= your original question. =C2=A0I'm asking about your comment on Pierre&= #39;s example that it "differs with other usage where lamji4 was {lo ka ce'u ce&#= 39;u purci}."

On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 9:30 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
My question: give me a meaningful plixau e= xamples with all places of cimde filled with other than LA-sumti and pro-su= mti.
If you are saying that a place can be filled only with them please= explcitely state that.
A translation (not glossing) to English i= s required.

I'm working on =C2=A0new gimste wi= th usage examples. Without usage the word or a te sumti doesnt exist for me= .


2014-09-19 17:09 GMT+04:00 Michael Turniansky <mt= urniansky@gmail.com>:
Gleki,=C2=A0
=C2=A0 Is your question one about usage as bot= h spatial and temporal dimensions? =C2=A0Because if so, lojban has no probl= em with that many times things like that. =C2=A0"cimde" itself, f= or example, can be either measurement. =C2=A0"ti" can be either &= quot;here" or "now". =C2=A0lidne can be referring either to = something in a line, a time sequence, or even just an abstract mathematical= concept.

=C2=A0 Or am I missing the subject of yo= ur query?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ---gejyspa


On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 2:52 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.n= ame@gmail.com> wrote:
This differs with other usage where lamji4 was {lo ka ce'u = ce'u purci}.

{la potygug cu maji la sangug lo ka= stuzi vau lo ka ce'u ce'u stici vo'a}?

2014-05-08 20:29 GM= T+04:00 Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org>:
On Thursday, May 08, 2014 15:47:45 Gleki Arxokuna wro= te:
> what would be the most useful example of lamji with the four places fi= lled
> in?

Don't know about the *most* useful, but here's one:

la .potygug. lamji la .sangug. lo ka stuzi lo stici

The definition doesn't clarify whether lo ve lamji cu farna lo lamji lo= se
lamji gi'ikau farna lo se lamji lo lamji.

mu'omi'e .pier.
--
La sal en el mar es m=C3=A1s que en la sangre.
Le sel dans la mer est plus que dans le sang.

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