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From: Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 20:33:41 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] precise tenru
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On 24 September 2014 11:45, TR NS <transfire@gmail.com> wrote:

> So the seltau and tertau of a tenru have an ambiguous (aka metaphorical)
> relationship that is left to the reader/listener to determine (by
> convention and context). But what if one wanted to be more specific. e.g.
> from example 5.2.8 of the CLL:
>
>     klama jubme
>
> A number of possible interpretations are given. The first and most obvious
> is "a-goer type-of-table". What if I wanted to make that interpretation
> quite clear so there could be no other interpretation? I can't say:
>
>     klama .e jubme
>
> b/c that would mean a "a goer and a table". I want to say in effect "x is
> a goer and x is a table". How to do that?
>
>
There is some disagreement in what happens with the xN places where N > 1
for je-tanru, but we all pretty much agree that the x1 must be the same. So
{klama je jubme} would require its x1 to be both a klama and a jubme.

In general about precise tanru though, I have a system of interpretation
schemes. Tanru fit broadly into three categories:

1) Compositional tanru (interpreted with the Flipping Principle)
2) "and" tanru, interpreted as if a {je} were present
3) Metaphorical tanru

An example of the kind is "certu mutce", which I would interpret as short
for "mutce lo ni certu". These are the tanru that give rise to fully
regular lujvo, e.g. "cretce = x1 is very skilled at doing x2 ..."
"and"-tanru are essentially adjectives as in English: "barda zdani" or
"pelxu bolci". Of course, you could try to interpret these with another
scheme instead, but since they're tanru, context and common sense are
always of the essence.
The final category is hard to come up with examples for, but it's
essentially a trashcan category, when the other schemes fail in context.

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 2=
4 September 2014 11:45, TR NS <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:trans=
fire@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">transfire@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:=
<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">So the seltau and terta=
u of a tenru have an ambiguous (aka metaphorical) relationship that is left=
 to the reader/listener to determine (by convention and context). But what =
if one wanted to be more specific. e.g. from example 5.2.8 of the CLL:<div>=
<br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 klama jubme</div><div><br></div><div>A number =
of possible interpretations are given. The first and most obvious is &quot;=
a-goer type-of-table&quot;. What if I wanted to make that interpretation qu=
ite clear so there could be no other interpretation? I can&#39;t say:</div>=
<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 klama .e jubme</div><div><br></div><div>b=
/c that would mean a &quot;a goer and a table&quot;. I want to say in effec=
t &quot;x is a goer and x is a table&quot;. How to do that?</div><span clas=
s=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div></font></span></div></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div>There is some disagreement in what happens wi=
th the xN places where N &gt; 1 for je-tanru, but we all pretty much agree =
that the x1 must be the same. So {klama je jubme} would require its x1 to b=
e both a klama and a jubme.</div><div><br></div><div>In general about preci=
se tanru though, I have a system of interpretation schemes. Tanru fit broad=
ly into three categories:</div><div><br></div><div>1) Compositional tanru (=
interpreted with the Flipping Principle)</div><div>2) &quot;and&quot; tanru=
, interpreted as if a {je} were present</div><div>3) Metaphorical tanru</di=
v><div><br></div><div>An example of the kind is &quot;certu mutce&quot;, wh=
ich I would interpret as short for &quot;mutce lo ni certu&quot;. These are=
 the tanru that give rise to fully regular lujvo, e.g. &quot;cretce =3D x1 =
is very skilled at doing x2 ...&quot;</div><div>&quot;and&quot;-tanru are e=
ssentially adjectives as in English: &quot;barda zdani&quot; or &quot;pelxu=
 bolci&quot;. Of course, you could try to interpret these with another sche=
me instead, but since they&#39;re tanru, context and common sense are alway=
s of the essence.</div><div>The final category is hard to come up with exam=
ples for, but it&#39;s essentially a trashcan category, when the other sche=
mes fail in context.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>.i mi&#39;e la tsani mu=
&#39;o</div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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