Received: from mail-ig0-f190.google.com ([209.85.213.190]:33879) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Xopz9-000468-7H for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 13 Nov 2014 00:42:36 -0800 Received: by mail-ig0-f190.google.com with SMTP id hl2sf708721igb.27 for ; Thu, 13 Nov 2014 00:42:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=5xAzmvNsI0UARauCNDZB8a0IlGiIsooRmD9cLRs/jX0=; b=Mw/omzsa1kVDSrSmbqHJOI/EK8rklWGxEjDpLySjMl2fV+Zhy9BvdGtL5XHTnkT7z6 aDRwz3PUp3kcCS3gXMJHuU6CFYXbYpBgpnq+gYii5/a1Gk6nCS7xqL8d2XGEkC9UVWFf hxtU9zzRiEd3Vy5wzsVPrF0EVvmTQ+S5oeENoE+8bK0IfsxJSLtzQiKGmcFBxTPODz1Z i5stVrJ5zoNqdLy6GADYs8YFl+SnmEjMBWbJ/EMdxawFp339u9f2LR2lpqsU1WdmccuZ tbbqdCCywfp07EySyaO3qu3OyjD5VyaMdE3ppav2gonls+hlglGLdUEKI6MGLinHx9rk hkEg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=5xAzmvNsI0UARauCNDZB8a0IlGiIsooRmD9cLRs/jX0=; b=Q+y95qaP3N9DloE8JKrCStXe56pxTi0Q4LoYMf1wmmqj1wvAYQSX9V+rXXdcqLL95T vwXvZkqjnHtb/O+vH5fF3nNxqx4fy+WMHle0mOTZ7NzmCaNngPPtI4VUC92ZGxbKT/51 HlM+/iT8oeYPvZtjZv7YsW2PXxtrdBPV6mDa8lfPQTHURFadTEgUxRA9EnAt8S5bT3uB ePhkbeu+PMsTBtBm5AFyOf4GrCeYUO6wdBmvsT26cXxzQgeRWmDKKxouZeqQTONyZNEA Nkod5mtp0T+R7VNFLEEZ1BLDhJi3ZHqlyl0b/L4TQISZchEhQ5aOLBMFgjYvBBkvuSm8 sJtw== X-Received: by 10.140.91.118 with SMTP id y109mr856804qgd.3.1415868148218; Thu, 13 Nov 2014 00:42:28 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.23.134 with SMTP id 6ls3328560qgp.17.gmail; Thu, 13 Nov 2014 00:42:27 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.140.86.9 with SMTP id o9mr1170qgd.29.1415868147206; Thu, 13 Nov 2014 00:42:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2014 00:42:26 -0800 (PST) From: la gleki To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] how to use {fancu}? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2592_480561773.1415868146899" X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- ------=_Part_2592_480561773.1415868146899 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thursday, September 18, 2014 9:41:32 AM UTC+4, la gleki wrote: > > > > 2014-09-17 19:23 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : > >> >> On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 3:35 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> How to say e.g. "f(x) =3D (x + 1) (x =E2=88=92 1)" ? Should I use {fanc= u} for=20 >>> that? If not how to use {fancu}? >>> I want an example with all places of {fancu} filled. >>> >>> fancu =3D x1 is a function/single-valued mapping from domain x2 to rang= e=20 >>> x3 defined by expression/rule x4. >>> >>> >>> E.g "f(x) =3D (x + 1) (x =E2=88=92 1)" where x>1 >>> >>> fy fancu xy lo du'u xy zmadu li pa vau li vei xy su'i pa ve'o pi'i vei= =20 >>> xy vu'u pa ve'o ? >>> >> >> We need to distinguish three cases: >> >> (1) example of what the gimste says it means >> (2) example of what "fancu" ought to mean >> (3) example of actual usage >> >> If you want (1), you could say: >> >> fy fancu lo'i mrena'u poi zmadu li pa lo'i mrena'u poi zmadu li no me'o= =20 >> vei xy su'i pa ve'o pi'i vei xy vu'u pa ve'o >> >> You want "me'o", not "li", for an expression. I'm assuming you meant it= =20 >> as a function on the reals and not, for example on the integers. The dom= ain=20 >> of the function is the set of values for which the function is defined. = The=20 >> range is the set from which the function takes its values. In this case = it=20 >> could also have been all the reals, even though the function never takes= =20 >> negative values. lo'i mrena'u poi zmadu li no is the image, which has to= be=20 >> included in the range. It doesn't say anywhere that "xy" is the variable= =20 >> that will take its values from the domain, but using x as a variable is = of=20 >> course a very common convention. >> >> As for (2): It doesn't really make a lot of sense to me to have a place= =20 >> for expression x4 in addition to a place for the function. It's as if=20 >> "klama" was defined as "x1 goes to x2 ... and has name x6". The place fo= r=20 >> the range is also redundant. It's as if "jalge" was defined as "x1 is th= e=20 >> result of x2 among potential results x3", or something like that. "fancu= "=20 >> ought to have just two places: "x1 is a function of x2". Your example wo= uld=20 >> be: "fy pe xy du li vei xy su'i pa ve'o pi'i vei xy vu'u pa ve'o" >> > > Don't you think {pe} is extremely hackish here? > =20 > >> , which doesn't use "fancu", but you could also say fy fancu xy noi=20 >> mrena'u gi'e zmadu li pa" >> > And this doesn't use the formula. > Still I think "f(x) is the name for "(x+1)(x-1)"" is a useful predicate. > > =20 > >> . A more general use would be: >> =20 >> lo jdima be lo seldi'a cu fancu lo ni sy se sabji jo'u lo ni sy se cped= u >> "The price of a good is a function of its supply and demand." >> > > This just needs a separate brivla. > By looking at {lacri} I can see that it both means "to rely/to depend on"= =20 and "to count on/trust". Isn't the first pair is what is fancu (2) and the second one is something= =20 like {krici/kanpe}? lo se vecnu cu lacri lo ni se se sabji jo'u lo ni sy se cpedu vau lo ka se= =20 jdima > > >> Finally (3), usage, is all over the place. An example from Tatoeba (just= =20 >> because it's the first hit for "cu fancu" that I get from Google): >> >> ro da poi fancu lo nuncfa cu fancu lo nunfa'o >> Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation. >> >> But I don't really see how "fancu" can be "subject to". To me that says= =20 >> that every thing that depends on a start, depends on having (or being?) = an=20 >> end. "Being subject to" is more like "lifri". I would say: "ro da poi li= fri=20 >> lo ka cfari cu lifri lo ka tolcfa". >> >> mu'o mi'e xorxes >> >> --=20 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s=20 >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n=20 >> email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_2592_480561773.1415868146899 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thursday, September 18, 2014 9:41:32 AM UTC+4, = la gleki wrote:


2014-09-17 19:23 GMT+04:00 Jorge = Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com>:

On Wed, S= ep 17, 2014 at 3:35 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail= .com> wrote:
How to say = e.g. "f(x) =3D (x=E2=80=89+=E2=80=891)=E2=80=89(x=E2=80=89=E2=88=92=E2=80= =891)" ? Should I use {fancu} for that? If not how to use {fancu}?
I wa= nt an example with all places of {fancu} filled.

<= div>fancu =3D x1 is a function/single-valued mapping from domain x2 to rang= e x3 defined by expression/rule x4.


E.g = "f(x) =3D (x=E2=80=89+=E2=80=891)=E2=80=89(x=E2=80=89=E2=88=92=E2=80=891)" = where x>1

fy fancu xy lo du'u xy zmadu li pa va= u li vei xy su'i pa ve'o pi'i vei xy vu'u pa ve'o ?

We need to distinguish three cases:
<= div>
(1) example of what the gimste says it means
<= div>(2) example of what "fancu" ought to mean
(3) example of actu= al usage

If you want (1), you could say:
=

 fy fancu lo'i mrena'u poi zmadu li pa lo'i m= rena'u poi zmadu li no me'o vei xy su'i pa ve'o pi'i vei xy vu'u pa ve'o

You want "me'o", not "li", for an expression. = I'm assuming you meant it as a function on the reals and not, for example o= n the integers. The domain of the function is the set of values for which t= he function is defined. The range is the set from which the function takes = its values. In this case it could also have been all the reals, even though= the function never takes negative values. lo'i mrena'u poi zmadu li no is = the image, which has to be included in the range. It doesn't say anywhere t= hat "xy" is the variable that will take its values from the domain, but usi= ng x as a variable is of course a very common convention.

As for (2): It doesn't really make a lot of sense to me to have a p= lace for expression x4 in addition to a place for the function. It's as if = "klama" was defined as "x1 goes to x2 ... and has name x6". The place for t= he range is also redundant. It's as if "jalge" was defined as "x1 is the re= sult of x2 among potential results x3", or something like that. "fancu" oug= ht to have just two places: "x1 is a function of x2". Your example would be= : "fy pe xy du li vei xy su'i pa ve'o pi'i vei xy vu'u pa ve'o"
=

Don't you think {pe} is extrem= ely hackish here?
 
, which doesn't use "fanc= u", but you could also say fy fancu xy noi mrena'u gi'e zmadu li pa"
<= /div>
And this doesn't use the formula.
<= div>Still I think "f(x) is the name for "(x+1)(x-1)"" is a useful predicate= .

 
. A more general use would= be:
 
 lo jdima be lo seldi'a cu fancu lo ni= sy se sabji jo'u lo ni sy se cpedu
 "The price of a good is= a function of its supply and demand."
=

This just needs a separate brivla.

By looking at {lacri} I can see that it= both means "to rely/to depend on"  and "to count on/trust".

Isn't the first pair is what is fancu (2) and the second on= e is something like {krici/kanpe}?

lo se vecnu cu = lacri lo ni se se sabji jo'u lo ni sy se cpedu vau lo ka se jdima


Finally (3), usage= , is all over the place. An example from Tatoeba (just because it's the fir= st hit for "cu fancu" that I get from Google):

  r= o da poi fancu lo nuncfa cu fancu lo nunfa'o
  Whatever is subject = to origination is all subject to cessation.

But I don't = really see how "fancu" can be "subject to". To me that says that every thin= g that depends on a start, depends on having (or being?) an end. "Being sub= ject to" is more like "lifri". I would say: "ro da poi lifri lo ka cfari cu= lifri lo ka tolcfa".

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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