Received: from mail-oi0-f63.google.com ([209.85.218.63]:41831) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XwMSn-0001SS-6o for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 03 Dec 2014 18:48:18 -0800 Received: by mail-oi0-f63.google.com with SMTP id a141sf2337913oig.28 for ; Wed, 03 Dec 2014 18:48:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:user-agent:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-type:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=CNmPchonjZGsph93zyuSZWCYMiWfihg3zz7R+nMUjoU=; b=WZlZQUmcUxSdvwlfOH+SLHoFWscNqObpNbGUjq/CuIqV5erktjS3FwHpLtsQzToDXZ LZQPExIVf9hTNirCtsN77wjIaiXfKS2n9HcikmI4CdiRMW8fqveTsceEO67m2B1SUHre SY6wXgs/mdxuu+wy1mqORKdZ+PbQa6bXf4LfhrMzMRSc7EBiNGmkWljTdTN75TZWMPxs 1v03RJmOnK5XaYrTLetRBBV2GAfgTEwsWvFN9DYt7S5Psr3wSjJ0RR6lmX/+qIYGN1uG Lscdy74gi6A5nOSECimQUtAVs1ddAz9m3kHBqiCPRNNBIJnIcl2LM49wDFiYICKW29Ml EKmg== X-Received: by 10.182.65.229 with SMTP id a5mr216obt.26.1417661291396; Wed, 03 Dec 2014 18:48:11 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.148.102 with SMTP id tr6ls338385obb.12.gmail; Wed, 03 Dec 2014 18:48:10 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.182.234.108 with SMTP id ud12mr7986963obc.0.1417661290180; Wed, 03 Dec 2014 18:48:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from cdptpa-oedge-vip.email.rr.com (cdptpa-outbound-snat.email.rr.com. [107.14.166.228]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id to7si3056668pab.0.2014.12.03.18.48.09 for ; Wed, 03 Dec 2014 18:48:10 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: none (google.com: phma@bezitopo.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) client-ip=107.14.166.228; Received: from [98.122.190.249] ([98.122.190.249:58004] helo=leopard.ixazon.lan) by cdptpa-oedge02 (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 3.5.0.35861 r(Momo-dev:tip)) with ESMTP id A2/30-02830-96BCF745; Thu, 04 Dec 2014 02:48:09 +0000 Received: from caracal.localnet (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by leopard.ixazon.lan (Postfix) with ESMTP id 035FF5BD0 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2014 21:48:08 -0500 (EST) From: Pierre Abbat To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: White men can't jump. Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 21:48:04 -0500 Message-ID: <1845745.bB0cgV8TPn@caracal> User-Agent: KMail/4.13.3 (Linux/3.13.0-40-generic; KDE/4.13.3; x86_64; ; ) In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-RR-Connecting-IP: 107.14.168.130:25 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Original-Sender: phma@bezitopo.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=none (google.com: phma@bezitopo.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) smtp.mail=phma@bezitopo.org Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - On Wednesday, December 03, 2014 13:01:26 la durka wrote: > However (again), that leaves a subtle problem with scope. {na} scopes over > the {ki'u} clause, so this says "It's not true that (I can jump because I'm > a white man)", i.e. "Being a white man is not the reason that I can jump". > It should be flipped to get the correct scoping, as in {ki'u da'i lo nu mi > kapli nakni kei mi na kakne lo ka plipe}, or you can split it into two > jufra as {mi na kakne lo ka plipe .i da'i lo nu mi kapli nakni cu krinu [lo > du'u go'i]}. > (Sorry. Negation can make things complicated.) The order of terms doesn't affect the scope of {na}; it negates the whole bridi. It does affect the scope of {naku}, which is a term (but not a sumti). {naku} negates from there to the end of the bridi. So you can say {ki'u da'i lo nu mi kapli nakni kei mi naku kakne lo ka plipe}. There's another thing you can do with the sentence: negate {ki'u}. You can put {na'e}, {to'e}, or {no'e} before it, or put {nai} after it. I'm not sure what the difference is. You can even do both and join two bridi with {ito'eki'unaibo}. Pierre -- li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.