Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 12:46:10 -0800 (PST)
From: la durka <durka42@gmail.com>
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Cc: phma@bezitopo.org
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 <1845745.bB0cgV8TPn@caracal>
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: White men can't jump.
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El mi=C3=A9rcoles, 3 de diciembre de 2014 21:48:11 UTC-5, Pierre Abbat escr=
ibi=C3=B3:
>
> On Wednesday, December 03, 2014 13:01:26 la durka wrote:=20
> > However (again), that leaves a subtle problem with scope. {na} scopes=
=20
> over=20
> > the {ki'u} clause, so this says "It's not true that (I can jump because=
=20
> I'm=20
> > a white man)", i.e. "Being a white man is not the reason that I can=20
> jump".=20
> > It should be flipped to get the correct scoping, as in {ki'u da'i lo nu=
=20
> mi=20
> > kapli nakni kei mi na kakne lo ka plipe}, or you can split it into two=
=20
> > jufra as {mi na kakne lo ka plipe .i da'i lo nu mi kapli nakni cu krinu=
=20
> [lo=20
> > du'u go'i]}.=20
> > (Sorry. Negation can make things complicated.)=20
>
> The order of terms doesn't affect the scope of {na}; it negates the whole=
=20
> bridi. It does affect the scope of {naku}, which is a term (but not a=20
> sumti).=20
> {naku} negates from there to the end of the bridi. So you can say {ki'u=
=20
> da'i=20
> lo nu mi kapli nakni kei mi naku kakne lo ka plipe}.=20
>

Most people these days seem to treat {na selbri} as {naku selbri},=20
essentially.
=20

>
> There's another thing you can do with the sentence: negate {ki'u}. You ca=
n=20
> put=20
> {na'e}, {to'e}, or {no'e} before it, or put {nai} after it. I'm not sure=
=20
> what=20
> the difference is. You can even do both and join two bridi with=20
> {ito'eki'unaibo}.=20
>
> Pierre=20
> --=20
> li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa=20
>
>

--=20
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br>El mi=C3=A9rcoles, 3 de diciembre de 2014 21:48:11=
 UTC-5, Pierre Abbat escribi=C3=B3:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: =
1ex;">On Wednesday, December 03, 2014 13:01:26 la durka wrote:
<br>&gt; However (again), that leaves a subtle problem with scope. {na} sco=
pes over
<br>&gt; the {ki'u} clause, so this says "It's not true that (I can jump be=
cause I'm
<br>&gt; a white man)", i.e. "Being a white man is not the reason that I ca=
n jump".
<br>&gt; It should be flipped to get the correct scoping, as in {ki'u da'i =
lo nu mi
<br>&gt; kapli nakni kei mi na kakne lo ka plipe}, or you can split it into=
 two
<br>&gt; jufra as {mi na kakne lo ka plipe .i da'i lo nu mi kapli nakni cu =
krinu [lo
<br>&gt; du'u go'i]}.
<br>&gt; (Sorry. Negation can make things complicated.)
<br>
<br>The order of terms doesn't affect the scope of {na}; it negates the who=
le=20
<br>bridi. It does affect the scope of {naku}, which is a term (but not a s=
umti).=20
<br>{naku} negates from there to the end of the bridi. So you can say {ki'u=
 da'i=20
<br>lo nu mi kapli nakni kei mi naku kakne lo ka plipe}.
<br></blockquote><div><br>Most people these days seem to treat {na selbri} =
as {naku selbri}, essentially.<br>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left: 1ex;">
<br>There's another thing you can do with the sentence: negate {ki'u}. You =
can put=20
<br>{na'e}, {to'e}, or {no'e} before it, or put {nai} after it. I'm not sur=
e what=20
<br>the difference is. You can even do both and join two bridi with=20
<br>{ito'eki'unaibo}.
<br>
<br>Pierre
<br>--=20
<br>li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa
<br>
<br></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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