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Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 12:24:55 -0500
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] precise tenru
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
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On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 9:55 PM, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 9:33 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> In general about precise tanru though, I have a system of interpretation
>> schemes. Tanru fit broadly into three categories:
>>
>> 1) Compositional tanru (interpreted with the Flipping Principle)
>> 2) "and" tanru, interpreted as if a {je} were present
>> 3) Metaphorical tanru
>>
>> An example of the kind is "certu mutce", which I would interpret as shor=
t
>> for "mutce lo ni certu". These are the tanru that give rise to fully
>> regular lujvo, e.g. "cretce =3D x1 is very skilled at doing x2 ..."
>>
>
> Right, but... What is the place structure of "certu mutce"?
>
> A: mi certu mutce
> B; do certu mutce ma
> A: ???mi certu mutce lo ni certu ...
>
> It doesn't make much sense to me. That's why tanru of this kind make me
> uncomfortable. They either don't mean what we take them to mean, or else
> the idea that tanru (at least those of this kind) inherit their place
> structure directly from their tertau needs to be revisited.
>

    Which is why precisely I prefer the construction "mutce certu" for that
type of tanru (See, for example, my use of "mutce tatpi" in* la teris p'ou
lo tirxu * and "mutce badri je smaji" in *le jinga guzmrkkukurbita*; but
yes, I will concede I would use cretce for the lujvo).  Because the primary
category (tertau) of the x1 is a certu.  What sort of certu?  a mutce kind
of certu.  And if you want to specify a certu in what field  you then
easily say "mi mutce certu lo nu pirlarfi'i keiku  le ckule be fi loi larcu=
"

           --gejyspa, up to the Jewish New Year in email, just in time for
the civil New Year...

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 9:55 PM, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jjllambias@gmail.=
com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"=
">On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 9:33 PM, Jacob Errington <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:nictytan@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">nictytan@gmail.com</a=
>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
 class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span><div><br></div></sp=
an><div>In general about precise tanru though, I have a system of interpret=
ation schemes. Tanru fit broadly into three categories:</div><div><br></div=
><div>1) Compositional tanru (interpreted with the Flipping Principle)</div=
><div>2) &quot;and&quot; tanru, interpreted as if a {je} were present</div>=
<div>3) Metaphorical tanru</div><div><br></div><div>An example of the kind =
is &quot;certu mutce&quot;, which I would interpret as short for &quot;mutc=
e lo ni certu&quot;. These are the tanru that give rise to fully regular lu=
jvo, e.g. &quot;cretce =3D x1 is very skilled at doing x2 ...&quot;</div></=
div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>Right, but... What =
is the place structure of &quot;certu mutce&quot;?=C2=A0</div><div><br></di=
v><div>A: mi certu mutce</div><div>B; do certu mutce ma</div><div>A: ???mi =
certu mutce lo ni certu ...</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>It doesn&#39;t make =
much sense to me. That&#39;s why tanru of this kind make me uncomfortable. =
They either don&#39;t mean what we take them to mean, or else the idea that=
 tanru (at least those of this kind) inherit their place structure directly=
 from their tertau needs to be revisited.</div></blockquote></div><br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 Which is why precisely I prefer the construction &quot;mutce cer=
tu&quot; for that type of tanru (See, for example, my use of &quot;mutce ta=
tpi&quot; in<i> la teris p&#39;ou lo tirxu </i>=C2=A0and &quot;mutce badri =
je smaji&quot; in <i>le jinga guzmrkkukurbita</i>;=C2=A0but yes, I will con=
cede I would use cretce for the lujvo).=C2=A0 Because the primary category =
(tertau) of the x1 is a certu.=C2=A0 What sort of certu? =C2=A0a mutce kind=
 of certu.=C2=A0 And if you want to specify a certu in what field =C2=A0you=
 then easily say &quot;mi mutce certu lo nu pirlarfi&#39;i keiku =C2=A0le c=
kule be fi loi larcu&quot;</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_extra">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa, up=
 to the Jewish New Year in email, just in time for the civil New Year...</d=
iv></div>

<p></p>

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