Received: from mail-yk0-f184.google.com ([209.85.160.184]:33207) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YAfCM-00024g-I5 for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 12 Jan 2015 05:38:27 -0800 Received: by mail-yk0-f184.google.com with SMTP id 20sf3305628yks.1 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2015 05:38:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=wkHAEoP+s3IGJrBM4+vSeX8Dbm6mxvjCwBhT1ijHmVc=; b=A4pmXFkU537PT2+6HO8rLem8jidJl23BDcYy04vCsvNDNzSMzNkCPHNmKKdBtZpLZS ModSqR0V1w0H7F5ReDEvaLpIJfYSMYOdXGo/Ud+9IBXRO99DMFTG0b0ba1SpQUfHN3vv ZG4MT3NiI9l6LZZ0Tge7YnvMJlaT324wa2wzKuKPXhiDu61ljH0+nQrMdZ6CXUodYJ3r m2++bkWnpd+o8tQTwDS2zjno+zVd5lp6SGz2LUVszPUkT+6asBprajhLspndp29A+sl1 XvG3S+LatXa6otQMJqINlpCXalUO7iXCLcIWBisMGLf0FAHMVYHNiHL/RlcKLviwj598 InHA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=wkHAEoP+s3IGJrBM4+vSeX8Dbm6mxvjCwBhT1ijHmVc=; b=IXT2C4u9uACiWQ7+sZYdHu41GsISKGOpG+iFJSAmrb1ipFDim9T1lO/gwwk05ttfhk Kc2OkGWbVt67Wwd7Sk3KPXg8YJVEIClKfqR2lIA/ufqpN7vf+Wd86YY50RSXBiCJDHnA 9MEwb8My8Aef+LxtsWCfEIs9CnIIzSWw7F5dlJ7DZezJtsJSrjp34/z3h46IiTKMt85z b5FOboy5rdiBExy59E6yv15dNn/AtS/M//prYj0kNjYiq8taqlQ6TgMYKUoIh/ElI4+2 w5zh20lEKLXBopes5ebcUSaYkUOVe5pfP+ZOLUM2hvVnjZkFNkm8DA2Pw626Elc7vbwn mdHw== X-Received: by 10.140.91.40 with SMTP id y37mr23651qgd.11.1421069900651; Mon, 12 Jan 2015 05:38:20 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.41.83 with SMTP id y77ls2557522qgy.78.gmail; Mon, 12 Jan 2015 05:38:20 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.140.92.212 with SMTP id b78mr412qge.36.1421069899987; Mon, 12 Jan 2015 05:38:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 05:38:19 -0800 (PST) From: Erik Natanael Gustafsson To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <9e69fb8c-e905-478c-bbe8-5cb97e73a4fd@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Songs and poetry in Lojban MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_378_792298753.1421069899661" X-Original-Sender: eriknatanaelgustafsson@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.7 X-Spam_score_int: 7 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: > >> Lojban seems to have a lot of short words, resulting in very many >> syllables needed for rather simple sentences. >> > > > This is a matter of perspective. Lojban is simply a very very very weird > language. When translating into Lojban from a very different language like > English (for instance) it can thus sometimes be difficult to say something > concisely or in a way that doesn't feel awkward. But the same is also true > in reverse-- for instance it's famously difficult to translate into English > sentences from Lojban that contain both a command and a question, like the > infamous "ko mo" (Make it so that you have some quality, what is that > quality?!? or something) or like (inventing an example) "ko klama fo lo > drata mu'i ma" (You must go (there) by a different route, and also, why are > you going (there), or, why is that? gosh it really is hard to translate :/) > > That's a good point, and one that would be very interesting to explore once I know the language well enough to start writing real poetry in it. [...] Content analysis details: (0.7 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block for more information. 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IN] [A] -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3 RBL: Good reputation (+3) [209.85.160.184 listed in wl.mailspike.net] 0.0 T_HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS From and EnvelopeFrom 2nd level mail domains are different -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (eriknatanaelgustafsson[at]gmail.com) 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid 0.0 T_FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN 2nd level domains in From and EnvelopeFrom freemail headers are different -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL Mailspike good senders ------=_Part_378_792298753.1421069899661 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_379_1766530271.1421069899661" ------=_Part_379_1766530271.1421069899661 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > >> Lojban seems to have a lot of short words, resulting in very many >> syllables needed for rather simple sentences. >> > > > This is a matter of perspective. Lojban is simply a very very very weird > language. When translating into Lojban from a very different language like > English (for instance) it can thus sometimes be difficult to say something > concisely or in a way that doesn't feel awkward. But the same is also true > in reverse-- for instance it's famously difficult to translate into English > sentences from Lojban that contain both a command and a question, like the > infamous "ko mo" (Make it so that you have some quality, what is that > quality?!? or something) or like (inventing an example) "ko klama fo lo > drata mu'i ma" (You must go (there) by a different route, and also, why are > you going (there), or, why is that? gosh it really is hard to translate :/) > > That's a good point, and one that would be very interesting to explore once I know the language well enough to start writing real poetry in it. > It also seems heavy on consonants, while vowels are arguably more >> important when singing. >> > > > This is a matter of style. There's two levels of stylistic choice at which > the current consonant-heavy sound of Lojban is constructed (that come to my > mind at the moment, anyway). First, there's the choice to leave out buffer > vowels. You can say a buffer vowel between EVERY consonant cluster if you > want, which can make it almost Polynesian in voweliness. Secondly, there's > also the choice to prefer shorter versions of lujvo over ones with fewer > clusters, for instance we usually say "ninpre" for newbie but we could > prefer "ni'opre" which has a simpler cluster at the expense of one more > syllable. > > That said, I quite enjoy the clustery sound of today's Lojban. It's better > for some styles of singing than others. I think Lojban rap sounds cool, to > me the consonantiness gives a pleasant complexity to dense phrases. But who > can say really, it's a matter of taste. > Can you sing on the buffer vowels though? From what I've read about them, they are to be as short as possible. Would it be good Lojban to treat them as syllables if you make sure the real syllables are even longer? > > > >> Do any of you have any experience in making music or poetry in Lojban and >> would you mind sharing your thoughts about how well suited Lojban is this? >> > > > I write a little song in Lojban almost every day. I can't say my little > songs are great works of art, but they're not meant as that, just to > entertain myself and express myself. To me Lojban is a beautiful place to > play. It's so delicate and living and yet so defined and precise, like > Calder's mobiles. > > But it's a matter of taste. Taste it and see how you like it. > > It's not a good language if you expect very many people to understand you, > of course. But I'm here, and I'll be happy to hear anything you come up > with. > > Thank you for your thoughts and your encouragement! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. 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 Lojban seems to have a lot of short words, resultin= g in very many syllables needed for rather simple sentences.

 
This is a matter of perspective. Lojban is simply a very ve= ry very weird language. When translating into Lojban from a very different = language like English (for instance) it can thus sometimes be difficult to = say something concisely or in a way that doesn't feel awkward. But the same= is also true in reverse-- for instance it's famously difficult to translat= e into English sentences from Lojban that contain both a command and a ques= tion, like the infamous "ko mo" (Make it so that you have some quality, wha= t is that quality?!? or something) or like (inventing an example) "ko klama= fo lo drata mu'i ma" (You must go (there) by a different route, and also, = why are you going (there), or, why is that? gosh it really is hard to trans= late :/)

 That's a go= od point, and one that would be very interesting to explore once I know the= language well enough to start writing real poetry in it.
&n= bsp;
It also seems heavy on consonants, while vowels are arguably more import= ant when singing.


This is a matter of style= . There's two levels of stylistic choice at which the current consonant-hea= vy sound of Lojban is constructed (that come to my mind at the moment, anyw= ay). First, there's the choice to leave out buffer vowels. You can say a bu= ffer vowel between EVERY consonant cluster if you want, which can make it a= lmost Polynesian in voweliness. Secondly, there's also the choice to prefer= shorter versions of lujvo over ones with fewer clusters, for instance we u= sually say "ninpre" for newbie but we could prefer "ni'opre" which has a si= mpler cluster at the expense of one more syllable.

That said, I qui= te enjoy the clustery sound of today's Lojban. It's better for some styles = of singing than others. I think Lojban rap sounds cool, to me the consonant= iness gives a pleasant complexity to dense phrases. But who can say really,= it's a matter of taste.

= Can you sing on the buffer vowels though? From what I've read about them, t= hey are to be as short as possible. Would it be good Lojban to treat them a= s syllables if you make sure the real syllables are even longer?
 <= /div>

 
Do any of you have any experience in making music or poet= ry in Lojban and would you mind sharing your thoughts about how well suited= Lojban is this?


I write a little song i= n Lojban almost every day. I can't say my little songs are great works of a= rt, but they're not meant as that, just to entertain myself and express mys= elf. To me Lojban is a beautiful place to play. It's so delicate and living= and yet so defined and precise, like Calder's mobiles.

But it's a = matter of taste. Taste it and see how you like it.

It's not a good = language if you expect very many people to understand you, of course. But I= 'm here, and I'll be happy to hear anything you come up with.

Thank you for your thoughts and your e= ncouragement!

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lo= jban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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