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[2607:f8b0:400d:c00::234]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q2si3578612qcn.2.2015.02.02.20.11.22 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 02 Feb 2015 20:11:22 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c00::234 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c00::234; Received: by mail-qa0-f52.google.com with SMTP id x12so32241718qac.11 for ; Mon, 02 Feb 2015 20:11:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.89.2 with SMTP id c2mr20570799qam.75.1422936682129; Mon, 02 Feb 2015 20:11:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.140.176.135 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Feb 2015 20:11:22 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 23:11:22 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] ganai-gi and if-then From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c3c7b479ef62050e274358 X-Original-Sender: Mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c00::234 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.8 X-Spam_score_int: 8 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: No. You are making a common mistake of confusing the English "if" with the logician's if. When we are not talking about one thing depending on another ("if I get my car fixed, then we can go to the movies"), but rather logical implication (two statements that relate in their truth value) ("if it is raining, then the ground is wet"). Is that statement true if the ground is wet from a sprinkler, but yet it is sunny?, Yes, because we are only told what happens if it is rainy. But if it is NOT rainy, we aren't making any conclusion about the wetness of the ground, so the combined statement is still true. The only time it can be false if the hypothesis ("it is sunny") is true, but the conclusion ("the ground is wet") is false. 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When we are not talking about one thing depending on another ("if I get my car fixed, then we can go to the movies"), but rather logical implication (two statements that relate in their truth value) ("if it is raining, then the ground is wet"). Is that statement true if the ground is wet from a sprinkler, but yet it is sunny?, Yes, because we are only told what happens if it is rainy. But if it is NOT rainy, we aren't making any conclusion about the wetness of the ground, so the combined statement is still true. The only time it can be false if the hypothesis ("it is sunny") is true, but the conclusion ("the ground is wet") is false. (read articles about implication for more details) --gejyspa On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 4:40 PM, ravas wrote: > *first second result* > True True True > True False True > False True True > False False False > > ... > > *Perhaps the most important of the truth functions commonly expressed in > forethought is TFTT, which can be paraphrased as =E2=80=9Cif ... then ...= =E2=80=9D* > ... > > 8.3) ro da zo'u ganai da klama le zarci gi cadzu le foldi > For-every X: if X is-a-goer-to the store then X is-a-walker-on the > field. > > ---- > > Why is ganai-gi (TFTT) the preferred gek-gik structure for "if...then..."= ? > Given my limited understanding of "truth functions" it seems like ge-gi > (TFFF) is clearer. > Isn't the first row the only thing we want to result in True? > > Something else I don't understand: > *"Since GA cmavo precede the first bridi, a following =E2=80=9Cnai=E2=80= =9D negates the > first bridi instead."* > > Why are we negating anything? > Aren't we trying to assert both bridi are true? > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11c3c7b479ef62050e274358 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 No.=C2=A0 You are making a common mistake of confus= ing the English "if" with the logician's if.=C2=A0 When we ar= e not talking about one thing depending on another ("if I get my car f= ixed, then we can go to the movies"), but rather logical implication (= two statements that relate in their truth value) ("if it is raining, t= hen the ground is wet").=C2=A0 Is that statement true if the ground is= wet from a sprinkler, but yet it is sunny?, =C2=A0 Yes, because we are onl= y told what happens if it is rainy.=C2=A0 But if it is NOT rainy, we aren&#= 39;t making any conclusion about the wetness of the ground, so the combined= statement is still true.=C2=A0 The only time it can be false if the hypoth= esis ("it is sunny") is true, but the conclusion ("the groun= d is wet") is false.

=C2=A0 (read articles about im= plication for more details)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa


On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 4:40 PM, ravas <ra= vas@outlook.com> wrote:
first = second result
True=C2=A0 True=C2=A0=C2=A0 True
True= =C2=A0 False=C2=A0 True
False True=C2=A0=C2=A0 True
False = False=C2=A0 False

...

Perhaps the most important o= f the truth functions commonly expressed in forethought is TFTT, which can = be paraphrased as =E2=80=9Cif ... then ... =E2=80=9D
...

8.3)= =C2=A0=C2=A0 ro da zo'u ganai da klama le zarci gi cadzu le foldi
= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 For-every X: if X is-a-goer-to the sto= re then X is-a-walker-on the field.

----

Why is ganai-gi (TFTT) the preferred gek-gik str= ucture for "if...then..."?
Given my limited understanding of &= quot;truth functions" it seems like ge-gi (TFFF) is clearer.
Isn&#= 39;t the first row the only thing we want to result in True?

Something else I don't u= nderstand:
"Since GA cmavo precede the first bridi, a fol= lowing =E2=80=9Cnai=E2=80=9D negates the first bridi instead."
=
Why are we negating anyt= hing?
Aren't we trying to assert both bridi are true?

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