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[2a00:1450:400c:c00::22f]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id p9si705332wiz.3.2015.04.19.16.52.27 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 19 Apr 2015 16:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22f as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::22f; Received: by mail-wg0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id o15so162095325wgy.2 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 2015 16:52:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.83.105 with SMTP id p9mr19045290wjy.117.1429487547113; Sun, 19 Apr 2015 16:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.27.56.18 with HTTP; Sun, 19 Apr 2015 16:52:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <55340DC0.7000106@gmail.com> References: <55340DC0.7000106@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 20:52:27 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] What actually are the rules of word formation? From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bb04ed674e62405141c81bb X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22f as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_bar: - --047d7bb04ed674e62405141c81bb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 5:19 PM, mezohe wrote: > > ------ MEZOHE'S CONDENSED CLL 2.0 MORPHOLOGY CHAPTER COUNTERFEIT ------ Very impressive. And more succinct than I expected it would have to be, given all the complexity. A few minor comments: i and u are vowels, unless a vowel or diphthong follows, in which case they > are glides. Glide-diphthong pairs win over glide-vowel pairs, which win > over diphthongs. > Not sure about "Glide-diphthong pairs win over glide-vowel pairs". "iaua" is "ia,ua" not "iau,a" so the glide-vowel wins in this case. Except that "au" can't really be a diphthong here because a diphthong can't be directly followed by a vowel, but I'm not sure if that's supposed to be understood at this stage, since that rule hasn't been mentioned yet. > i as a glide can't follow a diphthong ending in i, and u as a glide can't > follow the diphthong au. > This rule hasn't been implemented yet. Currently it's just that a glide can't follow a diphthong. > h can't be next to a consonant, glide, or glottal stop. > Nor can it start or end a word. Alternatively: "h must be between one vowel/diphthong and another". * y-syllable > - a word break, a glide, or up to three consonants > - then the letter y > - e.g. by, .y, gry, zbly > * hy-syllable > - the string "'y" > y-syllables and hy-syllables could in principle end in a consonant too, although this is never actually realized in brivla. But there is a proposal to make the r-hyphen of type-3 fu'ivla "-yr-", which would introduce y-syllables with codas in fu'ivla. (And eliminate the need for -l- as a variation of the type-3 r-hyphen.) A final rafsi is: > > - a zihevla: > - a vowel syllable > - followed by any number of vowel, h-, or consonantal syllables > - followed by a vowel- or h-syllable with no final consonant > - is not a gismu or sequence of more than one rafsi > - e.g. cpi,k=C3=B9,ku =C3=A0l,ga f=C3=AC,pr,koi gl=C3=A0u,ka spr=C3= =A0,'e > - or a gismu: > ... I think the definition of zihevla also needs to say that it may not start with a sequence of cmavo that yields a valid word when removed, otherwise "fa'i" would count as a zi'evla, even if it would never make it as a brivla= . A slinkuhi {valslinku'i} is a [consonant followed by a brivla that up to > its first y-syllable, or if no y-syllables, in its entirety, is composed = of > non-zihevla rafsi] that itself can't be broken up into a string of rafsi. > e.g. _p_r=C3=A0,'i _s_p=C3=B2r,te _z_bla,zd=C3=A0,vro _c_nar,jy,fra,= g=C3=A0,ri > The part following the consonant doesn't have to be brivla, just a string of one or more rafsi, as your first example shows. "pra'i" or "pra'ira'i" are slinku'i even though the consonant is not followed by a brivla. - Each pair of cmavo of the form CV Cy followed by either a brivla or a > cmavo of the form CVV or CV'V needs a glottal stop between the last > and second-last word. > e.g. "ca" "vy" "c=C3=A0r,vi" -> {ca vy. carvi} /Sa.vy?.'Sar.vi/ > (/Sa.vy.'Sar.vi/ would be {cavycarvi}, a lujvo) > or alternatively between the first and second word: "ca.vycarvi" should also work. Very good description of the morphology! mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7bb04ed674e62405141c81bb Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 5:19 PM, mezohe <wow.jvs@gmail.com> wrote:

------ MEZOHE'S CONDENSED CLL 2.0 MORPHOLOGY CHAPTER COUNTERFEIT ------=

Very impressive. And more succinct than I = expected it would have to be, given all the complexity. =C2=A0
A = few minor comments:

i and u are vowels, unless a vowel or diphthong follows, in which case they= are glides. Glide-diphthong pairs win over glide-vowel pairs, which win ov= er diphthongs.

Not sure about "Gli= de-diphthong pairs win over glide-vowel pairs". "iaua" is &q= uot;ia,ua" not "iau,a" so the glide-vowel wins in this case.= Except that "au" can't really be a diphthong here because a = diphthong can't be directly followed by a vowel, but I'm not sure i= f that's supposed to be understood at this stage, since that rule hasn&= #39;t been mentioned yet.

=C2=A0
i as a glide can't follow a diphthong ending in i, and u as a glid= e can't follow the diphthong au.

Th= is rule hasn't been implemented yet. Currently it's just that a gli= de can't follow a diphthong.
=C2=A0
h can't be next to a consonant, glide, or glottal stop.

Nor can it start or end a word. Alternatively: "h= must be between one vowel/diphthong and another".=C2=A0
* y-syllable
=C2=A0 - a word break, a glide, or up to three consonants
=C2=A0 - then the letter y
=C2=A0 - e.g. by, .y, gry, zbly

* hy-syllable
=C2=A0 - the string "'y"
=C2=A0
y-syllables and hy-syllables could in principle end in a consonant too, al= though this is never actually realized in brivla. But there is a proposal t= o make the r-hyphen of type-3 fu'ivla "-yr-", which would int= roduce y-syllables with codas in fu'ivla. (And eliminate the need for -= l- as a variation of the type-3 r-hyphen.)
=
A final rafsi is:

- a zihevla:
=C2=A0 - a vowel syllable
=C2=A0 - followed by any number of vowel, h-, or consonantal syllables
=C2=A0 - followed by a vowel- or h-syllable with no final consonant
=C2=A0 - is not a gismu or sequence of more than one rafsi
=C2=A0 - e.g. cpi,k=C3=B9,ku=C2=A0 =C3=A0l,ga=C2=A0 f=C3=AC,pr,koi=C2=A0 gl= =C3=A0u,ka=C2=A0 spr=C3=A0,'e
- or a gismu:
...=C2=A0

I thi= nk the definition of zihevla also needs to say that it may not start with a= sequence of cmavo that yields a valid word when removed, otherwise "f= a'i" would count as a zi'evla, even if it would never make it = as a brivla.

A slinkuhi {valslinku'i} is a [consonant followed by a brivla that up t= o its first y-syllable, or if no y-syllables, in its entirety, is composed = of non-zihevla rafsi] that itself can't be broken up into a string of r= afsi.
=C2=A0 e.g. _p_r=C3=A0,'i=C2=A0 _s_p=C3=B2r,te=C2=A0 _z_bla,zd=C3=A0,vr= o=C2=A0 _c_nar,jy,fra,g=C3=A0,ri

The pa= rt following the consonant doesn't have to be brivla, just a string of = one or more rafsi, as your first example shows. "pra'i" or &q= uot;pra'ira'i" are slinku'i even though the consonant is n= ot followed by a brivla.

- Each pair of cmavo of the form CV Cy followed by either a brivla or a
=C2=A0 cmavo of the form CVV or CV'V needs a glottal stop between the l= ast
=C2=A0 and second-last word.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 e.g. "ca" "vy" "c=C3=A0r,vi" -&= gt; {ca vy. carvi} /Sa.vy?.'Sar.vi/
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(/Sa.vy.'Sar.vi/ would be {cavycarvi}= , a lujvo)

or alternatively between the= first and second word: "ca.vycarvi" should also work.
=
Very good description of the morphology!

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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