Received: from mail-lb0-f191.google.com ([209.85.217.191]:33175) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1Z79tn-00064i-H7 for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:09:10 -0700 Received: by lbiv13 with SMTP id v13sf50863671lbi.0 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:08:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=zETHM+Qn4s2eoHWj84Lwa0hIsmCpxmo6tBA5LujofVM=; b=EH1ZYgoNaE1VLp9YNIS+frDITELyt8J+wryNoW5lbOeRoWkMvkbEZU9hKtgTMqswlY B2ERB62hQpwnz+GxVSmFuf/Asy5qSFqFj/xhjcVSQfHndCepOXNxYCJ5e7PL9xHuKSHi pA9+MORWQ0nbRpFS3iRKcW8iEEOzp/rQud29wqN6g4WLuKh+lNlgGPDX4L+gKlMj/qLe FmTzBGNhju/L9/HB5y3HCgo536o/C2ANLCloZbpfS2KEaX/4YTj+K/INV+O0bMw5NuYQ 4wpicLL/ZS7dKswZ7DdGKaNfzyB8BnD4VJ+l6u+bO1wyl5ILsBvY1nfSYK9f0d/e5tof mxXQ== X-Received: by 10.152.36.40 with SMTP id n8mr60482laj.20.1435010936252; Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:08:56 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.120.40 with SMTP id kz8ls769407lab.24.gmail; Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:08:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.255.66 with SMTP id ao2mr23452995lbd.15.1435010934951; Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:08:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22e.google.com (mail-wi0-x22e.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c05::22e]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id bk2si853657wib.1.2015.06.22.15.08.54 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:08:54 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22e as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::22e; Received: by mail-wi0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id a1so89576507wig.0 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:08:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.206.65 with SMTP id lm1mr55949841wjc.117.1435010934841; Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:08:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.27.26.88 with HTTP; Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:08:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9a42afbb-df26-455f-b62c-d89181cad0be@googlegroups.com> References: <9a559350-5536-4ea8-8708-73a06e5c8531@googlegroups.com> <9a42afbb-df26-455f-b62c-d89181cad0be@googlegroups.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 19:08:54 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Some questions after reading la .teris. From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b8739d2052b110519228582 X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22e as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.7 X-Spam_score_int: -26 X-Spam_bar: -- --047d7b8739d2052b110519228582 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 6:16 PM, Erik Natanael Gustafsson < eriknatanaelgustafsson@gmail.com> wrote: > Yes, I see now that krici is defined as "x1 believes [regardless of > evidence/proof].....". However, in English you can believe something even > if you don't disregard evidence (which I feel the definition for krici > suggests), for example if you don't have enough evidence to be completely > sure about what is correct, but you can make an educated guess. > Example: "I believe the hammer is on the upper shelf." > You wouldn't say "I am of the opinion that the hammer is on the upper > shelf." and I can't quite put into words why. It's just not something that > you have an opinion about. For me, it feels the same way to say that "she > was of the opinion that he was just pretending.". > I think that's mostly a matter of register. "I am of the opinion that ..." is way too formal for something like that. In English you might express an opinion by saying "I think that ...". I have to disagree with the definition of opinion as justified belief. I > know you wrote "roughly", but I see opinion as something fundamentally > different from a belief. It feels like a completely different mindset. I > think I would say that you can only have an opinion about something which > isn't either true or false, something where preference is applicable. And > it doesn't have to be justified at all, it can just be a hunch, a feeling, > as well as well thought > arguments. Please let me know if this is not how an opinion is defined in > English! > Here's a dictionary definition of "opinion", from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/opinion?s=t "a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty." mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7b8739d2052b110519228582 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 6:16 PM, Erik Natanael Gustafsson <eriknatanaelgustafsson@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, I see now that krici is defined as "x1 belie= ves [regardless of evidence/proof].....". However, in English you can = believe something even if you don't disregard evidence (which I feel th= e definition for krici suggests), for example if you don't have enough = evidence to be completely sure about what is correct, but you can make an e= ducated guess.
Example: "I believe the hammer is on the upper = shelf."
You wouldn't say "I am of the opinion that the ham= mer is on the upper shelf." and I can't quite put into words why. = It's just not something that you have an opinion about. For me, it feel= s the same way to say that "she was of the opinion that he was just pr= etending.".

I think th= at's mostly a matter of register. "I am of the opinion that ...&qu= ot; is way too formal for something like that. In English you might express= an opinion by saying "I think that ...".

I have to disagree with the definition = of opinion as justified belief. I know you wrote "roughly", but I= see opinion as something fundamentally different from a belief. It feels l= ike a completely different mindset. I think I would say that you can only h= ave an opinion about something which isn't either true or false, someth= ing where preference is applicable. And it doesn't have to be justified= at all, it can just be a hunch, a feeling, as well as well thought
arg= uments. Please let me know if this is not how an opinion is defined in Engl= ish!

Here's a dictionar= y definition of "opinion", from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/opin= ion?s=3Dt
"a=C2=A0belief=C2=A0or=C2=A0judgment=C2=A0that=C2=A0rests=C2=A0on=C2=A0grounds=C2=A0insufficient=C2=A0to=C2=A0produce=C2=A0complete<= span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(102,102,102)= ;line-height:22px">=C2=A0certainty.&q= uot;

mu'o mi'e xorxes

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lo= jban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--047d7b8739d2052b110519228582--