Received: from mail-qk0-f190.google.com ([209.85.220.190]:34564) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1Z7KOz-0002L9-26 for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 23 Jun 2015 02:22:08 -0700 Received: by qkby64 with SMTP id y64sf809464qkb.1 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2015 02:21:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=zJ5Q05G4nDu+Vyy6dSTCJzmL9XdJ7fQlgPf2Jrtre0Q=; b=sMpGAlCY/mOpNvroi9VMExFUgqpyWAsUCsiSdTmyfJ9Sh7ewg0AetqfF02SzR4USpm KG/GWONGRhA3cnF2ZfT3OnEIBq0QHLHwzq4cuGE5NS0zHWSeBGH9JeAMVNwzLRQ/6AG2 XMxmtaBgjK2t7T9zBf1ciVqt/63iqt+LKAHWK0v7/1wckE7EAqiOvxgDuT3dCDMGcgkg UxKWnXe1umZoxnEoDhpl83foaQB25XbR9ZGs9ar8LtAqjHCfEwH8xYOPwIREjUZ1gtl8 AM00WTjj/2pUFhzTp4kavMN/x61lEj3NbxwfrmVqYfIeysMfHqK+f+XavUjfCeyhKtf+ aGHQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=zJ5Q05G4nDu+Vyy6dSTCJzmL9XdJ7fQlgPf2Jrtre0Q=; b=I7NiwYap0Fzzcq3VGKF7++IVBMGlN5nvj6WpYU2z5pSTDq5OibKEH5v0tVmSVEf4rL 9YC7NY5sBzedjUTyySL3Wn7rUpx7RXZfwGKXnLY8znYHBax84m6yFlfm2656LbUc24Ht tjUHy6mxTG4qhJ0taM0rDeC+hwvoDqjmu5NcQLqhPkah+Fci93Tq6hdGNR+2gv2Nev5d mRBEUuOvVC0B+/b1A+roqZoINlA+5oJHzLcR81riVp3fOiOeuujWYEpU2rDvjTTc8oUv Ii5DxWsyekGICC/CJm23WA9eoalW+v5FVG8RRlcEpUUUYejucVYuRLvobPcFrZv2qXZZ LHUw== X-Received: by 10.140.37.129 with SMTP id r1mr508587qgr.18.1435051310961; Tue, 23 Jun 2015 02:21:50 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.40.240 with SMTP id x103ls66707qgx.87.gmail; Tue, 23 Jun 2015 02:21:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.140.86.105 with SMTP id o96mr482177qgd.11.1435051310281; Tue, 23 Jun 2015 02:21:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 02:21:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Erik Natanael Gustafsson To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <28474f71-596c-4000-8f63-cb431fa47d5b@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <9a559350-5536-4ea8-8708-73a06e5c8531@googlegroups.com> <9a42afbb-df26-455f-b62c-d89181cad0be@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Some questions after reading la .teris. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_4251_980555681.1435051309240" X-Original-Sender: eriknatanaelgustafsson@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- ------=_Part_4251_980555681.1435051309240 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4252_923323694.1435051309250" ------=_Part_4252_923323694.1435051309250 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 12:08:56 AM UTC+2, xorxes wrote: > > > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 6:16 PM, Erik Natanael Gustafsson < > eriknatanae...@gmail.com > wrote: > >> Yes, I see now that krici is defined as "x1 believes [regardless of=20 >> evidence/proof].....". However, in English you can believe something eve= n=20 >> if you don't disregard evidence (which I feel the definition for krici= =20 >> suggests), for example if you don't have enough evidence to be completel= y=20 >> sure about what is correct, but you can make an educated guess. >> Example: "I believe the hammer is on the upper shelf." >> You wouldn't say "I am of the opinion that the hammer is on the upper=20 >> shelf." and I can't quite put into words why. It's just not something th= at=20 >> you have an opinion about. For me, it feels the same way to say that "sh= e=20 >> was of the opinion that he was just pretending.". >> > > I think that's mostly a matter of register. "I am of the opinion that ...= "=20 > is way too formal for something like that. In English you might express a= n=20 > opinion by saying "I think that ...". > Yes it's too formal, but I wanted to clearly distinguish the different=20 senses of "to think". "To think" has so many different meanings that it=20 feels almost meaningless when used in a definition. > > I have to disagree with the definition of opinion as justified belief. I= =20 >> know you wrote "roughly", but I see opinion as something fundamentally= =20 >> different from a belief. It feels like a completely different mindset. I= =20 >> think I would say that you can only have an opinion about something whic= h=20 >> isn't either true or false, something where preference is applicable. An= d=20 >> it doesn't have to be justified at all, it can just be a hunch, a feelin= g,=20 >> as well as well thought=20 >> arguments. Please let me know if this is not how an opinion is defined i= n=20 >> English! >> > > Here's a dictionary definition of "opinion", from=20 > http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/opinion?s=3Dt > "a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce=20 > complete certainty." > Thanks! Opinion has far more different meanings than I thought. The closest= =20 Swedish translation, "=C3=A5sikt", only has one definition: "a persons=20 subjective perspective/view, a persons subjective taste or preferred action= =20 in some action". So there clearly is a cultural/linguistic difference in=20 how we think about these things. I guess the question is, how would I in=20 Lojban distinguish between an opinion that is a belief concerning something= =20 which is true or false and an opinion that is a subjective view/taste?=20 di'ai co'o --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_4252_923323694.1435051309250 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 12:08:56 AM UTC+2, xorxes wrote:


On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 6:16 PM, Erik Natanael Gustafsson <eri= knatanae...@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, I see now that krici is defined as "x1 believes [regardless= of evidence/proof].....". However, in English you can believe something ev= en if you don't disregard evidence (which I feel the definition for krici s= uggests), for example if you don't have enough evidence to be completely su= re about what is correct, but you can make an educated guess.
Examp= le: "I believe the hammer is on the upper shelf."
You wouldn't say "I am= of the opinion that the hammer is on the upper shelf." and I can't quite p= ut into words why. It's just not something that you have an opinion about. = For me, it feels the same way to say that "she was of the opinion that he w= as just pretending.".

I thi= nk that's mostly a matter of register. "I am of the opinion that ..." is wa= y too formal for something like that. In English you might express an opini= on by saying "I think that ...".
Y= es it's too formal, but I wanted to clearly distinguish the different sense= s of "to think". "To think" has so many different meanings that it feels al= most meaningless when used in a definition.

I have to disagree with = the definition of opinion as justified belief. I know you wrote "roughly", = but I see opinion as something fundamentally different from a belief. It fe= els like a completely different mindset. I think I would say that you can o= nly have an opinion about something which isn't either true or false, somet= hing where preference is applicable. And it doesn't have to be justified at= all, it can just be a hunch, a feeling, as well as well thought
argume= nts. Please let me know if this is not how an opinion is defined in English= !

Here's a dictionary defin= ition of "opinion", from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/opinion?s=3Dt
"a belief or judgment that <= /span>rests on grounds insufficient to=  produce&nb= sp;complete certainty."
Thanks! Opinio= n has far more different meanings than I thought. The closest Swedish trans= lation, "=C3=A5sikt", only has one definition: "a persons subjective perspe= ctive/view, a persons subjective taste or preferred action in some action".= So there clearly is a cultural/linguistic difference in how we think about= these things. I guess the question is, how would I in Lojban distinguish b= etween an opinion that is a belief concerning something which is true or fa= lse and an opinion that is a subjective view/taste?

di'ai co'o
<= div>

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