Received: from mail-la0-f55.google.com ([209.85.215.55]:32831) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1ZUJcb-0006QX-8C for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 12:11:06 -0700 Received: by labcl3 with SMTP id cl3sf34602441lab.0 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 12:10:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=iXdKFddAtyYwt5T0x83dpurpbq2/OKG9BuCdekFNi/M=; b=kfkodqjPynGW57ehrMGoP405USm8k9fbD0/8tnrjQPmSC4pVSQZcZ0l4KjnOJSa3Ho VHDiJrtqfji2ynEgfE5kff7ZuR6YByqx4NwFkpyYrQ+H+5W6jgI/unF7ThmFiHtFSTWe 2T2fy8DVxTjW7mquMFLPF9kaSaB8fWVyl0Qr7fk573wRajRNdfKpFQwUPNjArJ4QJWVy 4Brxi+9nnyN8VCDbNfqXo+BzfbKx1gMZ3hhkrFT6xs1T9XZRE89wIfRbwQMJUbJ6SYIE I5zJ1shm0o4l6GZoYFqYYkWi8nG67tbm03LXq8JcSP8cddlpK/M1yrr6tUs1n3XF9WPT QxdQ== X-Received: by 10.152.9.195 with SMTP id c3mr160190lab.25.1440529854390; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 12:10:54 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.22.73 with SMTP id b9ls762670laf.43.gmail; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 12:10:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.149.39 with SMTP id tx7mr8926679lbb.11.1440529852649; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 12:10:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x229.google.com (mail-wi0-x229.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c05::229]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id x9si175800wiy.1.2015.08.25.12.10.52 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 25 Aug 2015 12:10:52 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::229 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::229; Received: by mail-wi0-x229.google.com with SMTP id ja10so23862309wic.1 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 12:10:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.109.231 with SMTP id hv7mr7306958wib.7.1440529852492; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 12:10:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.227.8 with HTTP; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 12:10:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Michael Turniansky Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 15:10:12 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Trying my first translation ... a few questions. To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f50286e257254051e277e35 X-Original-Sender: Mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::229 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mturniansky@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_bar: - --e89a8f50286e257254051e277e35 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 1:59 PM, la .xabltos. wrote: > So, I have been studying for a few months now. Most of that time, I read > through most of the Wave lessons, and the crash course, though mostly > through "Lojban for Beginners". Recently, I started to go through some of > the "early reader" texts that I could find, as I think that that will help > me learn the basic grammar better as it won't be as complex. > > So now I am trying to translate an "early reader" book to Lojban. I have > noticed that it really requires you to understand and think about the > grammar of the sentence more than I would normally do. I am hoping that > this is a learned thing, and that it will be come easier as time passes, as > I think it was tripping me up initially. > > So, the name of the book is "The Puppy Who Lost his Bark". Initially, I > thought that I needed to use "lost" as my selbri, and build the rest of the > sentence around that. What I got was > > lo cityge'u ma cu cirko le ri gercmo > > Which I really knew was not right. "ma" is completely out of place and > doesn't fit into the sentence structure. Then it dawned on me that I was > dealing with a relative clause, and I think I got it right the second time > around. > > lo cityge'u poi ma kau cirko le ke'a gercmo > Close, but "ma kau" is neither needed nor correct here. You are thinking about it as trying to translate the "who", but that is already covered by the word "poi". As for "le", I would think most would agree that "lo" would still be better here. And while the "ke'a" is certainly not *wrong*, most people would tend to leave that out (i.e. "the pupppy who lost a bark/barks" would be understood from context to be most likely the bark associated with him) > > I then move on into the book. "Little Puppy likes to play, but loses toys > every day." > > .i lo cmalu cityge'u goi ko'a cu nelci le nu kelci ku ku'i ri cirko le > zilkei ti'u le ro djedi > Since the original has "Little Puppy", a name, I would personally use "la cmalu cityge'u" (or even "la cmaci'oge'u" or "la cmaci'oger") As for "ti'u le ro djedi" that's not right. "ti'u" is only used for marking a particular time of day (it would take the same kind of sumti as the word it derives from, "tcika"). You could use "ca ro djedi", but I think in this particular case, I would probably tend to be a bitless literal and just "di'i" before cirko. > > My question here (outside of hoping that I got it right), is "zilkei". I > understand it as a lujvo (zi'o kelci). What I don't understand is why > that would be chosen over something like selkei (se kelci). Can anyone > explain this choice? > > Don't take everything you read in jbovlaste as gospel. Like wikipedia, it is modifiable by pretty much any one. I would definitely use "selkei" for toy. "zilkei" would be a toy in the absolute, that has no particular player of it. But in this case, since Puppy IS playing with them, "selkei" would be better. Hope this helps, --gejyspa > I've gone a bit farther, but don't want to run into any copyright blah, > blah, blah, so I'll stop here. > > Any notes, comments, corrections would be appreciated. > > Thank you. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --e89a8f50286e257254051e277e35 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 1:59 PM, la .xabltos. <hobbletoe@gmail.com> wrote:
So, I have been studying for a few months now.=C2=A0 Most of that time, I= read through most of the Wave lessons, and the crash course, though mostly= through "Lojban for Beginners".=C2=A0 Recently, I started to go = through some of the "early reader" texts that I could find, as I = think that that will help me learn the basic grammar better as it won't= be as complex.

So now I am trying to translate an= "early reader" book to Lojban.=C2=A0 I have noticed that it real= ly requires you to understand and think about the grammar of the sentence m= ore than I would normally do.=C2=A0 I am hoping that this is a learned thin= g, and that it will be come easier as time passes, as I think it was trippi= ng me up initially.

So, the name of the book is &q= uot;The Puppy Who Lost his Bark".=C2=A0=C2=A0 Initially, I thought tha= t I needed to use "lost" as my selbri, and build the rest of the = sentence around that.=C2=A0 What I got was

lo cityge'u ma cu cirko le r= i gercmo

Which I really knew was not right.= =C2=A0 "ma" is completely out of place and doesn't fit into t= he sentence structure.=C2=A0 Then it dawned on me that I was dealing with a= relative clause, and I think I got it right the second time around.
<= div>







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