Received: from mail-la0-f62.google.com ([209.85.215.62]:33142) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1ZUdS5-0000CU-01 for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 26 Aug 2015 09:21:42 -0700 Received: by labcl3 with SMTP id cl3sf40444002lab.0 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 2015 09:21:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=aCN7uvR6ymZn1n9EUerQyUV0GNdssQrunkIocnfrfvc=; b=xmcxG679jC7P5LTARQ13FCCK84QlT8mjyceh97EUihA9+udhA5BMbt39RtuXKiVdJs GHGgzaUpo1Kz2jpv7zl+1s42JTLonHS1h4gNMVwT2su8yzfhQslzc5BKGd5RUffd3AEP iUBRrzZ3vdDfwrUKmP4UmFBCJCA6Fm9Xsghs+I6+eavWGJG3OksO8mgWG0k2Ohx8qcSg rAmnXbp7iMkz8sLeYGUciEH3vcqFL4NrHDkM+TsuBfncoWmgaJJ4afBUmU3a6/1Yan6W zSwnYkRM2v6cVisSGhMLBEKer2uk2pgqAJM3U+Et7KuxSe7t8I5HWOaztjMPhKa0wjkv G9eQ== X-Received: by 10.152.3.38 with SMTP id 6mr200447laz.27.1440606082084; Wed, 26 Aug 2015 09:21:22 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.23.135 with SMTP id m7ls824262laf.103.gmail; Wed, 26 Aug 2015 09:21:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.152.26.101 with SMTP id k5mr546736lag.9.1440606080014; Wed, 26 Aug 2015 09:21:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net. [212.227.17.22]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id hm7si347171wib.0.2015.08.26.09.21.19 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 26 Aug 2015 09:21:19 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of seladwa@gmx.de designates 212.227.17.22 as permitted sender) client-ip=212.227.17.22; Received: from [192.168.2.118] ([84.137.95.246]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MBq8p-1ZcZGC2l67-00AkFq for ; Wed, 26 Aug 2015 18:21:19 +0200 Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Trying my first translation ... a few questions. To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com References: <76a5b632-69f7-42af-9f57-c66a889b8044@googlegroups.com> From: selpa'i Message-ID: <55DDE77F.8010804@gmx.de> Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 18:21:19 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <76a5b632-69f7-42af-9f57-c66a889b8044@googlegroups.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:tFcQYbroUl4I4WQIKCWwqzlH3ypM5AdtsI3eHr7qEmEC0q+WX6l 1TaHemd/lKn4CmoAyUoTOQQ1fT8WO3OVMrVIei6mbuBDAkO5kYOcYtiHfKvvKGJih2hBQoK BWavjRhmmMVsLdiD52bGUOVd0a1npDSaCul1e0F2leKbZFbLxclELNeynl3iMuMdn/pblmk B1Pa8UeC8UBQ/+N1VaqKA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:lxFgLJohUY8=:rCEVKRsnXTRvKeLYh33X2k 3fuGOqvuoiwLlQOwD29zFJydduiX8JbP6bhymdCuWHmkAT9xWiEevAP/PiXsCrjH3FkuB/0KF 71DDZORzcJE6cfl6dIkrihN1XZw/8OaAdtdz+8CIaBd8yY0qKTSWrCgComJ8LGIjpnPedk3vm GtEF/D9vxajoDS8pcdhep4pUifqU4vZhm1w45Npa2wp88TjEccodeWO7H1N8z3cMWTa+Z05IN DyGiKCaKFHxVhJLFiUPHctO2YMj0lVpxL3qSg0hEWMqnp4Frw2/OWLcfRrtVt9XA4R8BHASzB mPbXfMxwoJv06aPWPv9+ytviWxIQS2MsswIyIXvWLReThULYChqzaqphBJejJXmPBlB25uVjf RgPo5L4KSgqnxsTrWSM0ic5/k4g+Oa5FYKWw4SHZSdyZmkcaUOdMpAiqw7uwndmIzudqC8p1i uTazhKIgyPJAcu8CgyfvEw5HnYng2GRSe+19bk2H8CIFWUSxSffddDuoOiwIc+zTIOZA+VOop bkbhoYbuEuapQJ679b3JXIl1bn2Ct4LF4HCvX7zyy3CXnA/3f0/JtzYAmiopMyN+2Y5ZghbS/ ufC3ZtQFOxr8kpZqXq3DkcZkgmaCrq17081KjmHCWRoBNlGaMIvGWqNE654UBouepeujAq360 OUiEAGpz1GI62wkHzROXNiJQ56XOjXirnITB3tEGnkXb+sUotHivuGy3LREVl4inx3vpdowfr 0rrXsJ5qI+6z3oIWTifEp/4Cwv7hVBhMB+fBRQ== X-Original-Sender: seladwa@gmx.de X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of seladwa@gmx.de designates 212.227.17.22 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=seladwa@gmx.de Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_bar: - la .xabyltos. cu cusku di'e > Thank you again. I'm really beginning to think that this will be much > more rewarding than just copying some of the shorter texts and sorting > through it. This will really make me think about what I want to say and > how I need to say it. From experience I know that few things will expose one's gaps quicker=20 than trying to translate something challenging into Lojban. I strongly=20 recommend it. > My next question is simple, I believe, and touches upon something said > previously. > > He has lost his ball. > .i ko'a pu cirko lo ko'a bolci > > or > > .i ko'a pu cirko lo bolci > > While talking about "his bark" yesterday, it was noted that ke'a was not > really needed due to context. Is it the same here? Would I need ko'a > when talking about "his" ball? Well, with the {ko'a} it means "his ball", and without it it means=20 "ball". You can leave it out when it's obvious, but it may often not be. But maybe your questions arises from the whole {cirko} issue, where in=20 my translation the {ke'a} disappeared due to {cirko lo ka gercmo}. I'll=20 talk about this more below. > Another question deals with a ... I guess you would call it a split > quote (and actually the same question from above). > > "Little Puppy," said Bird. "You have lost your ball." > > .i lu doi la cmalu cityge'u li'u se cusku la cipni .i lu do pu cirko lo > do bolci li'u > > Is this proper? Do I have to mark Bird as saying the second sentence, > or is that understood from context? If it does need marked, to I do it > at the beginning or the end of the sentence, or would that be a matter > of preference? It is proper. It's also totally fine to have something after {.i} that=20 isn't a complete sentence, like a sumti for instance. Context takes care=20 of who said it, just like in English. Another very common method of doing split quotes that is used in large=20 works such as Alice in Wonderland and The Wizard of Oz is to use {sei}=20 like so: .i =C2=ABlu doi la cmalu cityge'u =E2=80=94sei la cipni cu cusku=E2=80=94 d= o pu cirko lo do=20 bolci li'u=C2=BB (The em dashes are used to make the inserted material more readily=20 discernible. This is optional.) With this method the whole quote remains in one piece. > One last question from la selpa'i post. He used the word zvajuko, ( > ... te'a zvajuko lo keldai ) but I not quite sure what it means. I know > that zva is a rafsi form of zvati, but I haven't been able to figure out > quite what juko would refer to. It's the zi'evla version of {zvajuncri}. See http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/addvalsi.html?valsi=3Dzvajuko As mentioned earlier, I understand {cirko}'s x2 to always be a property=20 abstraction, and saying {cirko lo keldai} is either non-sense or=20 implicit sumti-raising (or sloppy speech). In Lojban, losing a toy is=20 not the same thing as losing one's patience. English conflates these=20 different senses of "lose" into a single word, but Lojban tries to avoid=20 such conflations. Using {cirko} for both senses (and all the other=20 senses of "lose") would only import the polysemy of English into Lojban.=20 Therefore I use {zvajuko} (a contraction from "ZVAti dJUno cirKO") for=20 the sense of "losing the property of knowing where something is". mi'e la selpa'i mu'o --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.