Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 06:15:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: "la .xabltos." <hobbletoe@gmail.com>
To: Lojban Beginners <lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Trying my first translation ... a few questions.
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On Saturday, August 29, 2015 at 5:53:41 AM UTC-4, selpa'i wrote:
>
> la .xabyltos. cu cusku di'e 
> > Continuing on, I find that I'm not too sure about identifying amounts. 
> > I'm also not quite sure what to do with "them" in the second sentence. 
> > It seems like it falls into context again. 
> > 
> > Bird says 
> > You have lost your toys.  You have lost them all. 
> > .i do zvajuncri lo do keldai .i do zvajuncri ro da 
>
> It can be tricky to back-reference in Lojban sometimes, but here you can 
> use {ri} without problems. {ri} picks up the previous sumti (skipping 
> certain pronouns), so in 
>
>     do zvajuncri lo do keldai .i do zvajuncri ri 
>     "You lost your toys. You lost them." 
>
> the {ri} would refer to {lo do keldai}. 
>
> Now to say "each" of something, you only have to prepend {ro} to it: 
>
>     do zvajuncri ro ri 
>     "You lost each of them." 
>
> If you are curious, {ro <sumti>} is equivalent to {ro da poi ke'a menre 
> <sumti>} ("each thing among the referents of <sumti>"). The same applies 
> to any other number you put before a sumti. 
>
> I thought long and hard about using ri here, but then I didn't think that 
it fit as I thought that it would refer to do instead.  I must have missed 
the part about it skipping pro-sumti.  I was also considering ra as well, 
but I know that it is not used as often, and that it would require the 
audience to stop and try to figure out what was meant.  
 

> > And I had also forgotten the title of the book, or I would have 
> > remembered that not everything is tangible that he looses.  I am 
> > assuming that this is where I would need cirko and not zvajuncri.  But 
> > then again, they treat it as a physical thing in the book.  The Mouse 
> > finds it later in the park, and is using it. 
> > 
> > "Oh Puppy," says Bird. "You have lost your bark!" 
> > lu .ue doi la cityge'u - sei la cipni cu cusku - do cirko lo ka do 
> > gercmo li'u 
>
> {do cirko lo ka ce'u gercmo}. Every {ka}-abstraction contains at least 
> one {ce'u}, and {cirko} knows that when it sees a property in its x2, it 
> will "insert" its x1 into the {ce'u}-slot of the property. {ce'u} is a 
> *bit* like {ke'a}; you don't say {do noi do melbi} but {do noi *ke'a* 
> melbi}. If you're confused, it might be good to seek out some more 
> information about {ka}-abstractions. 
>
> As for having to distinguish {cirko} and {zvajuncri} unlike the source 
> text, you have the option of always using {cirko} and adding a {tu'a} in 
> the case of non-properties. I don't know if you have come across {tu'a} 
> yet. {tu'a <sumti>} is short for {lo su'u <sumti> co'e}, that is "an 
> unspecified abstraction involving <sumti>". 
>
> This means you can say {cirko tu'a lo bolci} when you mean {cirko lo ka 
> djuno lo du'u lo bolci cu zvati ma kau}, because the latter is an 
> abstraction involving {lo bolci}. 
>

So I really need to go and read up on abstractions.  I know that isn't 
exactly what you are saying, but it is clear to me that my understanding is 
clearly lacking here. 

Thank you again.  I really do put a lot of effort into this, as a) I would 
like to get it right, and b) I appreciate everyone's time, and don't want 
to waste it on a bunch of guesses.

>
> mi'e la selpa'i mu'o 
>

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<br>On Saturday, August 29, 2015 at 5:53:41 AM UTC-4, selpa&#39;i wrote:<bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-=
left: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; b=
order-left-style: solid;">la .xabyltos. cu cusku di&#39;e
<br>&gt; Continuing on, I find that I&#39;m not too sure about identifying =
amounts.
<br>&gt; I&#39;m also not quite sure what to do with &quot;them&quot; in th=
e second sentence.
<br>&gt; It seems like it falls into context again.
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; Bird says
<br>&gt; You have lost your toys. =C2=A0You have lost them all.
<br>&gt; .i do zvajuncri lo do keldai .i do zvajuncri ro da
<br>
<br>It can be tricky to back-reference in Lojban sometimes, but here you ca=
n=20
<br>use {ri} without problems. {ri} picks up the previous sumti (skipping=
=20
<br>certain pronouns), so in
<br>
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 do zvajuncri lo do keldai .i do zvajuncri ri
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;You lost your toys. You lost them.&quot;
<br>
<br>the {ri} would refer to {lo do keldai}.
<br>
<br>Now to say &quot;each&quot; of something, you only have to prepend {ro}=
 to it:
<br>
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 do zvajuncri ro ri
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;You lost each of them.&quot;
<br>
<br>If you are curious, {ro &lt;sumti&gt;} is equivalent to {ro da poi ke&#=
39;a menre=20
<br>&lt;sumti&gt;} (&quot;each thing among the referents of &lt;sumti&gt;&q=
uot;). The same applies=20
<br>to any other number you put before a sumti.
<br>
<br></blockquote><div>I thought long and hard about using <font style=3D"ba=
ckground-color: rgb(204, 204, 204);">ri</font> here, but then I didn&#39;t =
think that it fit as I thought that it would refer to <font style=3D"backgr=
ound-color: rgb(204, 204, 204);">do</font> instead.=C2=A0 I must have misse=
d the part about it skipping pro-sumti.=C2=A0 I was also considering ra as =
well, but I know that it is not used as often, and that it would require th=
e audience to stop and try to figure out what was meant.=C2=A0=C2=A0<br>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-w=
idth: 1px; border-left-style: solid;">&gt; And I had also forgotten the tit=
le of the book, or I would have
<br>&gt; remembered that not everything is tangible that he looses. =C2=A0I=
 am
<br>&gt; assuming that this is where I would need cirko and not zvajuncri. =
=C2=A0But
<br>&gt; then again, they treat it as a physical thing in the book. =C2=A0T=
he Mouse
<br>&gt; finds it later in the park, and is using it.
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; &quot;Oh Puppy,&quot; says Bird. &quot;You have lost your bark!&qu=
ot;
<br>&gt; lu .ue doi la cityge&#39;u - sei la cipni cu cusku - do cirko lo k=
a do
<br>&gt; gercmo li&#39;u
<br>
<br>{do cirko lo ka ce&#39;u gercmo}. Every {ka}-abstraction contains at le=
ast=20
<br>one {ce&#39;u}, and {cirko} knows that when it sees a property in its x=
2, it=20
<br>will &quot;insert&quot; its x1 into the {ce&#39;u}-slot of the property=
. {ce&#39;u} is a=20
<br>*bit* like {ke&#39;a}; you don&#39;t say {do noi do melbi} but {do noi =
*ke&#39;a*=20
<br>melbi}. If you&#39;re confused, it might be good to seek out some more=
=20
<br>information about {ka}-abstractions.
<br>
<br>As for having to distinguish {cirko} and {zvajuncri} unlike the source=
=20
<br>text, you have the option of always using {cirko} and adding a {tu&#39;=
a} in=20
<br>the case of non-properties. I don&#39;t know if you have come across {t=
u&#39;a}=20
<br>yet. {tu&#39;a &lt;sumti&gt;} is short for {lo su&#39;u &lt;sumti&gt; c=
o&#39;e}, that is &quot;an=20
<br>unspecified abstraction involving &lt;sumti&gt;&quot;.
<br>
<br>This means you can say {cirko tu&#39;a lo bolci} when you mean {cirko l=
o ka=20
<br>djuno lo du&#39;u lo bolci cu zvati ma kau}, because the latter is an=
=20
<br>abstraction involving {lo bolci}.
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>So I really need to go and read=C2=A0u=
p on abstractions.=C2=A0 I know that isn&#39;t exactly what you are saying,=
 but it is clear to me that=C2=A0my understanding is clearly=C2=A0lacking h=
ere.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Thank you again.=C2=A0 I really do put =
a lot of effort into this, as a) I would like to get it right, and b) I app=
reciate everyone&#39;s time, and don&#39;t want to waste it on a bunch of g=
uesses.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-le=
ft-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid;">
<br>mi&#39;e la selpa&#39;i mu&#39;o
<br></blockquote>

<p></p>

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