Received: from mail-lb0-f190.google.com ([209.85.217.190]:34723) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1ZWmeE-00029w-F7 for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 07:34:56 -0700 Received: by lbcao8 with SMTP id ao8sf483699lbc.1 for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 07:34:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=9+473mjhresuyx40Sw45HzIm2GOX4/UtUWwqh7u+XiY=; b=F0FXdKuV2DjjfzlI789aJHdVl+9QyAfXOejyWjweSfDSEyUK8TVYKO56FDRAqcOCWY 8lmceq2YiG48jN/keuUvKaY5X9k1enYac42thxjenAej7Z9myLGG7EQDkgjdm3nLIUxh VcpHVBiGgydZjtuG8BGq6PVInVDZFBETBpnJ4E9I68IOfQ7Eg2xoNCs1bQwZkY5ZUgSM JItqbQBZJXsAPkJs3cS9yGWY3wO+T1duHaF5HtBy8Z2CgmB+TMFFMlzBWNENNN9Eho6S 2b9pkMbgiI8Y6kiM9xmvhiP2PTk3ZsIA1yDzBZXjkSWs+ChdUe8VLILHNJbDbzgoTEL+ ToAQ== X-Received: by 10.180.187.162 with SMTP id ft2mr14698wic.6.1441118087955; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 07:34:47 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.189.201 with SMTP id gk9ls874488wic.3.gmail; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 07:34:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.194.57.44 with SMTP id f12mr2129855wjq.0.1441118085804; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 07:34:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22e.google.com (mail-wi0-x22e.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c05::22e]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id hm7si152461wib.0.2015.09.01.07.34.45 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 01 Sep 2015 07:34:45 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22e as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::22e; Received: by mail-wi0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id z8so34640038wib.1 for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 07:34:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.194.5.103 with SMTP id r7mr32518391wjr.47.1441118085585; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 07:34:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.227.8 with HTTP; Tue, 1 Sep 2015 07:34:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <824e08b0-06c1-4003-8192-c092db492410@googlegroups.com> References: <76a5b632-69f7-42af-9f57-c66a889b8044@googlegroups.com> <55DDE77F.8010804@gmx.de> <80479aa0-ebcc-4105-9a9d-0850992de1c9@googlegroups.com> <054ae82a-9842-47bb-8fab-48f57d4684c0@googlegroups.com> <55E18124.6020108@gmx.de> <824e08b0-06c1-4003-8192-c092db492410@googlegroups.com> From: Michael Turniansky Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 10:34:06 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Trying my first translation ... a few questions. To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b4512f292203d051eb0734a X-Original-Sender: Mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mturniansky@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_bar: - --047d7b4512f292203d051eb0734a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Well, not quite. The first problem here is that "je" combines the klama (which you typoed, btw) and sisku into a single entity, x1 is a go-and-seeker of/goes-and-seeks x2. While x2 for compound tanru like that are not actually defined, it often is taken to mean that the x2 should be able to fit into the x2 of both parts (the klama and the sisku). Which implies that he is a goer-to and seeker-of ballness... Which is a bit messy. "gi'e" is cleaner here: ma'a klama gi'e sisku tu'a lo ko'a gercmo . This puts the "tu'a lo ko'a gercmo" associated only with the sisku, not the klama. But in fact, I would drop the "klama gi'e" entirely. Because the English "go and" is kind of just a grammatical fillip. It doesn't really mean to go someplace in particular. It just emphasizes a course of action. Now, you will also notice I used "tu'a lo ko'a gercmo" instead of "lo ka ko'a gercmo". There is two reasons I did this. First, I do prefer to use tu'a X when seraching for an object (as it says in jbovlaste). Although this may have changed in modern day usage. I'm a dinosaur. And secondly, because "lo ka ko'a gercmo" does not mean " the property of his bark", but in fact means "the property of him being a barker" (because the ko'a is now part of the bridi "ko'a gercmo" (he barks), not a possessive like it was before, without the ka. --gejyspa On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 10:19 AM, la .xabltos. wrote: > So we are currently gathering friends to find Puppy's toys. My question > today concerns the connective that I need to use with selbri. I think > that I need je in this case, but am not positive. > > "Oh, Duck," says Frog. Let's go and look for Puppy's bark." > .i lu doi datka - sei la pipybafli cu cusku - ma'a kalama je sisku lo ka > ko'a gercmo li'u > > I used ma'a since contextually, we have Puppy, Bird, Frog, and Duck, and > not just Frog and Duck (mi'o). > > My only other concern was "look for". Initially, I thought that it would > be viska, but then I stopped and thought about it some. About what they > were really trying to accomplish. And I came up with sisku, and they are > searching for something, not necessarily looking at it. > > I hope that I actually got this part right. And I really am learning so > much more translating to Lojban than from it. You really need to think > about what is really trying to be said instead of engrained euphemisms > (look for), and what part of grammar something really is. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7b4512f292203d051eb0734a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Well, not quite. The first problem here is th= at "je" combines the klama (which you typoed, btw) and sisku into= a single entity, x1 is a go-and-seeker of/goes-and-seeks x2. =C2=A0 While = x2 =C2=A0for compound tanru like that are not actually defined, it often is= taken to mean that the x2 should be able to fit into the x2 of both parts = (the klama and the sisku).=C2=A0 Which implies that he is a goer-to and see= ker-of ballness...=C2=A0 Which is a bit messy. "gi'e" is clea= ner here:
ma'a klama gi'e sisku tu'a lo ko'a gercmo .= =C2=A0 This puts the "tu'a lo ko'a gercmo" associated onl= y with the sisku, not the klama.=C2=A0 But in fact, I would drop the "= klama gi'e" entirely.=C2=A0 Because the English "go and"= is kind of just a grammatical fillip.=C2=A0 It doesn't really mean to = go someplace in particular.=C2=A0 It just emphasizes a course of action. = =C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Now, you will also notice I us= ed "tu'a lo ko'a gercmo" instead of "lo ka ko'a = gercmo".=C2=A0 There is two reasons I did this.=C2=A0 First, I do pref= er to use tu'a X when seraching for an object (as it says in jbovlaste)= .=C2=A0 Although this may have changed in modern day usage. I'm a dinos= aur.=C2=A0 And secondly, because "lo ka ko'a gercmo" does not= mean " the property of his =C2=A0bark", but in fact means "= the property of him being a barker" (because the ko'a is now part = of the bridi "ko'a gercmo" (he barks), not a possessive like = it was before, without the ka.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa


On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 10:19 AM= , la .xabltos. <hobbletoe@gmail.com> wrote:
So we are currently gathering fri= ends to find Puppy's toys.=C2=A0 My question today concerns the connect= ive that I need to use with selbri.=C2=A0 I think that I need je in this case, but am not positive.
<= br>
"Oh, Duck," says Frog. Let's go and look for Pu= ppy's bark."
.i lu doi datka - sei la pipybafli cu cusku - ma'a kalama je sis= ku lo=C2=A0ka ko'a gercmo li'u

I us= ed ma'a since contextually, we have Puppy, Bir= d, Frog, and Duck, and not just Frog and Duck (mi'o).

<= div>My only other concern=C2=A0was "look for".=C2=A0 Initially, I= thought that it would be viska, but then I stopped and thought about it some.=C2=A0 About wh= at they were really trying to accomplish.=C2=A0 And I came up with sisku, and they are search= ing for something, not necessarily looking at it.

= I hope that I actually got this part right.=C2=A0 And I really am learning = so much more translating to Lojban than from it.=C2=A0 You really need to t= hink about what is really trying to be said instead of engrained euphemisms= (look for), and what part of=C2=A0grammar something=C2=A0really is.
<= div>=C2=A0

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