Received: from mail-ig0-f192.google.com ([209.85.213.192]:33638) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1ZWo0s-0003m2-QK for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 09:02:27 -0700 Received: by igcxw12 with SMTP id xw12sf1876134igc.0 for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 09:02:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=ATntaHca4mLfWasXgRxpVnbi2KtbYDOwRIxd/gLe2+Y=; b=u5askXjs605El36OlrfCjuGasABVXpf58uTkMshQIix9AmCVSPCWS8xa8jiUxN1Cf1 rPU1NY1RfobkGVFbN4Le2FhjU+Qrlp2lj4olCpR3w44xZfnl8f36KyMJH9O8Y4gxBiYA UcFAr0yGTtLvK58lFh/jrWyXXcKCg4lhLcFOTHtcgGk4kgpMXH2wpv9+wMdRlEuyQlU6 utmzaCgF6FWpsvJDhNWOn9hrdMFGC18Wua2LfrdCss0CXZV/yjtEqmXXe3sPOyROS5y/ /JgfbvPxPuq4oX3gno8Hoyz7L4CvHnf+tqB/PeapN24Jpq5UNSNAqvrJTZeAY/75sfK8 lRqA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=ATntaHca4mLfWasXgRxpVnbi2KtbYDOwRIxd/gLe2+Y=; b=0aYRgAsu+oyvZ54YGYub/PZOBDh6SPOfpFQO8igA67EUqoTTwYOo0G7DXmevAM+FFU mkeutrTiTrHbkYVH/c7fLZRVQ+Uqp6tSjLMvBQkzsy/pRcRcE/cBmUqd/eOnBcW2C9o4 cMSCJ8nRc4F1djrle7fCVRqfA08P0Jo3mc4z+DynZC8wO5PnGXwWpdqOKDtLF6v5YF/3 ssT1w1jOnEGUu9P2CusqF3x/Y6imzkV9P9WbH9mZ577aGozfsWdQN174KtuhQJAMMlSK 33Rr9td1SVj/Q7sklHI1LeoEyGBBEh5uogQ9bKnY09Q55zKhzcGtIkkYK19zwH+PK3sH 0TXw== X-Received: by 10.182.213.164 with SMTP id nt4mr450092obc.39.1441123336985; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 09:02:16 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.34.161 with SMTP id a1ls4201235obj.48.gmail; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 09:02:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.182.28.10 with SMTP id x10mr451270obg.20.1441123335383; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 09:02:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 09:02:14 -0700 (PDT) From: "la .xabltos." To: Lojban Beginners Message-Id: <2e294910-7f61-4b40-8e4b-7b71233cc8ff@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <55E5C535.40404@gmx.de> References: <76a5b632-69f7-42af-9f57-c66a889b8044@googlegroups.com> <55DDE77F.8010804@gmx.de> <80479aa0-ebcc-4105-9a9d-0850992de1c9@googlegroups.com> <054ae82a-9842-47bb-8fab-48f57d4684c0@googlegroups.com> <55E18124.6020108@gmx.de> <824e08b0-06c1-4003-8192-c092db492410@googlegroups.com> <55E5C535.40404@gmx.de> Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Trying my first translation ... a few questions. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_2365_2085486865.1441123334881" X-Original-Sender: hobbletoe@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_2365_2085486865.1441123334881 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2366_332546387.1441123334882" ------=_Part_2366_332546387.1441123334882 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tuesday, September 1, 2015 at 11:33:11 AM UTC-4, selpa'i wrote: > > la .xabltos. cu cusku di'e=20 > > So we are currently gathering friends to find Puppy's toys. My questio= n=20 > > today concerns the connective that I need to use with selbri. I think= =20 > > that I need je in this case, but am not positive.=20 > >=20 > > "Oh, Duck," says Frog. Let's go and look for Puppy's bark."=20 > > .i lu doi datka - sei la pipybafli cu cusku - ma'a kalama je sisku lo k= a=20 > > ko'a gercmo li'u=20 > > Here you want to connect so-called bridi-tails, not selbri. A bridi tail= =20 > is a selbri + the sumti and other things that follow it. Using brackets,= =20 > you want to say {ma'a [klama] AND [sisku lo ka ko'a gercmo]}, but if you= =20 > use {je} there then you get {[klama] AND [sisku]} and {lo ka ko'a=20 > gercmo} falls into both sisku's x2 and klama's x2.=20 > > To connect bridi tails you use {gi'e} (every connective has different=20 > forms depending on whether you want to connect sumti, selbri,=20 > bridi-tails and whether it's forethought or afterthought).=20 > > {ma'a klama gi'e sisku lo ka ko'a gercmo}=20 > > Having said that, there are two things that still need to be fixed in=20 > your sentence.=20 > > First, has the {ko'a} been assigned in a previous sentence? More=20 > importantly, {ko'a} doesn't go into a {ka} abstraction like that. In=20 > {ka} you use {ce'u}, just like you would use {ke'a} in a relative=20 > clause. That would be {lo ka ce'u gercmo}, and this means "the property= =20 > of being someone who barks". Maybe not what you're after, but it could=20 > get complicated here, because if the dog is searching for a property,=20 > and not for a thing having that property, then you'll end up with a=20 > double {ka}: {sisku lo ka ce'u ka ce'u gercmo}.=20 > I had established la cmalu cityge'u as ko'a in the first sentence in the=20 book, as I figured he would be referenced quite often. Does KOhA have a=20 narrower range of reference than I thought? Would there be another way to= =20 reference Puppy, or should I just scrap that and used la cityge'u instead? = =20 As for ka, I think that my fingers were on automatic, as I had wanted to=20 say nu. However, I am really getting the feel of, if the abstraction=20 doesn't fit into one of the NU abstractions, I am better off with tu'a. =20 However, I'm still reading though it all so that I get a better=20 understanding of it all. > > The other thing is that Frog is trying to motivate Duck to undertake an= =20 > action. Your sentence however is a statement. You should add {.e'e} or=20 > {.e'u} in the beginning.=20 > > Attitudinals ... something else I was thinking about, but just hadn't=20 really added in. I did before with .ue only because I saw it as a=20 replacement for the "!" at the end of the sentence. I'm going to see about= =20 making myself a nice list of them that I can hang on my wall. =20 > See:=20 > > https://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_Section:_Irrealis_Attitudinals#cmavo:_.e= .27e_.28UI1.29=20 > =20 > > Maybe I'd say:=20 > > .i =C2=ABlu .e'e doi la datka =E2=80=94sei la pipybanfi cu cusku=E2=80=94= ma'a klama gi'e=20 > sisku tu'a lo ka gercmo li'u=C2=BB=20 > > > I used ma'asince contextually, we have Puppy, Bird, Frog, and Duck, and= =20 > > not just Frog and Duck (mi'o).=20 > > Good.=20 > > > My only other concern was "look for". Initially, I thought that it=20 > > would be viska, but then I stopped and thought about it some. About=20 > > what they were really trying to accomplish. And I came up with sisku,= =20 > > and they are searching for something, not necessarily looking at it.=20 > > Like with {cirko}, some people use {sisku}'s x2 as a property, so=20 > {sisku} means "x1 looks among the referents of x3 for ones that have=20 > property x2".=20 > > Usually those people then use a different word when they are looking for= =20 > a concrete object, because then it's about trying to find out what a=20 > things location is. Things like {zvasisku} and even {mitysisku} exist=20 > for that.=20 > > I had seen/considered mitysisku, but thought that something more general= =20 would work out alright. I'm really beginning to sense a difference between= =20 physical and non-physical concepts in Lojban. Something that I will really= =20 need to consider going forward.=20 Relatedly, finding an object is {zvafa'i} ("discover where something=20 > is"), while "finding out a fact" is just {facki}.=20 > > mi'e la selpa'i mu'o=20 > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_2366_332546387.1441123334882 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Tuesday, September 1, 2015 at 11:33:11 AM UTC-4, selpa'i wro= te:
la .xabltos. cu cusku di'e
> So we are currently gathering friends to find Puppy's toys. = =C2=A0My question
> today concerns the connective that I need to use with selbri. =C2= =A0I think
> that I need je in this case, but am not positive.
>
> "Oh, Duck," says Frog. Let's go and look for Puppy&#= 39;s bark."
> .i lu doi datka - sei la pipybafli cu cusku - ma'a kalama je s= isku lo ka
> ko'a gercmo li'u

Here you want to connect so-called bridi-tails, not selbri. A bridi tai= l=20
is a selbri + the sumti and other things that follow it. Using brackets= ,=20
you want to say {ma'a [klama] AND [sisku lo ka ko'a gercmo]}, b= ut if you=20
use {je} there then you get {[klama] AND [sisku]} and {lo ka ko'a= =20
gercmo} falls into both sisku's x2 and klama's x2.

To connect bridi tails you use {gi'e} (every connective has differe= nt=20
forms depending on whether you want to connect sumti, selbri,=20
bridi-tails and whether it's forethought or afterthought).

{ma'a klama gi'e sisku lo ka ko'a gercmo}

Having said that, there are two things that still need to be fixed in= =20
your sentence.

First, has the {ko'a} been assigned in a previous sentence? More=20
importantly, {ko'a} doesn't go into a {ka} abstraction like tha= t. In=20
{ka} you use {ce'u}, just like you would use {ke'a} in a relati= ve=20
clause. That would be {lo ka ce'u gercmo}, and this means "the= property=20
of being someone who barks". Maybe not what you're after, but = it could=20
get complicated here, because if the dog is searching for a property,= =20
and not for a thing having that property, then you'll end up with a= =20
double {ka}: {sisku lo ka ce'u ka ce'u gercmo}.

I had established la=C2=A0cmalu cityge'u as ko'a=C2=A0in t= he first=C2=A0sentence in the book, as I figured he would be referenced qui= te often.=C2=A0 Does KOhA have a narrower range of reference than I thought= ?=C2=A0 Would there be another way to reference Puppy, or should I just scr= ap that and used la c= ityge'u instead?=C2=A0 As for ka, I think that my fingers we= re on automatic, as I had wanted to say nu.=C2=A0 However, I am really getting the feel o= f, if the abstraction doesn't fit into one of the NU abstractions, I am= better off with tu&#= 39;a.=C2=A0 However, I'm still reading though it all so that I g= et=C2=A0a better understanding of it all.

The other thing is that Frog is trying to motivate Duck to undertake an= =20
action. Your sentence however is a statement. You should add {.e'e}= or=20
{.e'u} in the beginning.

Attitudinals ... something else I was thinking about,= but just hadn't really added in.=C2=A0 I did before with .ue only because I saw it= as a replacement for the "!" at the end of the sentence.=C2=A0 I= 'm going to see about making myself a nice list of them that I can hang= on my wall.
=C2=A0
See:=20
https://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_Section:_Irrealis_Attitudinals#= cmavo:_.e.27e_.28UI1.29

Maybe I'd say:

.i =C2=ABlu .e'e doi la datka =E2=80=94sei la pipybanfi cu cusku=E2= =80=94 ma'a klama gi'e=20
sisku tu'a lo ka gercmo li'u=C2=BB

> I used ma'asince contextually, we have Puppy, Bird, Frog, and = Duck, and
> not just Frog and Duck (mi'o).

Good.

> My only other concern was "look for". =C2=A0Initially, I= thought that it
> would be viska, but then I stopped and thought about it some. =C2= =A0About
> what they were really trying to accomplish. =C2=A0And I came up wi= th sisku,
> and they are searching for something, not necessarily looking at i= t.

Like with {cirko}, some people use {sisku}'s x2 as a property, so= =20
{sisku} means "x1 looks among the referents of x3 for ones that ha= ve=20
property x2".

Usually those people then use a different word when they are looking fo= r=20
a concrete object, because then it's about trying to find out what = a=20
things location is. Things like {zvasisku} and even {mitysisku} exist= =20
for that.

I had seen/considered mitysisku, but thought=C2=A0that something mo= re general would work=C2=A0out alright.=C2=A0 I'm really beginning to s= ense a difference between physical and non-physical concepts in Lojban.=C2= =A0 Something that I will really need=C2=A0to consider going forward.=C2=A0=

Relatedly, finding an obj= ect is {zvafa'i} ("discover where something=20
is"), while "finding out a fact" is just {facki}.

mi'e la selpa'i mu'o

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