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[2a00:1450:400c:c09::232]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g9si451745wmd.2.2015.11.14.22.32.34 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 14 Nov 2015 22:32:34 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c09::232 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c09::232; Received: by mail-wm0-x232.google.com with SMTP id w144so79638110wmw.0 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 22:32:34 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.194.82.202 with SMTP id k10mr35884575wjy.85.1447569153981; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 22:32:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.74.105 with HTTP; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 22:31:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 09:31:54 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Translations of quotes for my next piece To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bb03e8036021005248e7562 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c09::232 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_bar: - --047d7bb03e8036021005248e7562 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2015-11-15 0:21 GMT+03:00 guskant : > > 2015-11-14 13:54 GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna: > > > > 2015-11-14 16:15 GMT+03:00 Erik Natanael Gustafsson: > >> > >> 4. Koranen: The Quran 29:69 (Surah al-Ankabut) =E2=80=9CVerily! Allah = is with > >> those who do good deeds.=E2=80=9D > > > > > > wa-inna l-laha lama=CA=BFa l-mu=E1=B8=A5'sin=C4=ABna > > > > "And indeed, Allah surely with good-doers." > > > > Given that Lojban can elide selbri we get an even more doubtful > > approximation: > > > > ije je'u la alax ba'e bu'u lo za'u zukte be lo zabna > > > > This is a typical {malxelfanva} containing two problems. > > 1. That part of the original arabic text is in accusative case, and I > interpret it as an expression of the circumstantial accusative. > Given that accusative doesn't exist in Lojban ... > When translating it into Lojban, we could: > 1-1. translate the whole statement including the previous part of the > text, or, > 1-2. supplement the part with a selbri so that the readers find that the > part represents the circumstances. > > 2. the form "I JA fragment" is not only officially ungrammatical > I used the official YACC parser for that fragment. The only complaint from the parser is the cmevla {alax} which is now acceptable due to officializing of dotside. Other than that that fragment is grammatical. but also anti-logical from a point of view of logical operation. > You may add {co'e} as the selbri. Why should we add any selbri that don't exist in the original? Of course, we are translating the meaning so there is some distance between retaining the original syntactic tree and making it sound in a supposedly Simple Lojban. > {i ji'a (sai)} would be acceptable translation for "wa-inna", though it i= s > not the best. > > > 2015-11-14 13:15 GMT+00:00 Erik Natanael Gustafsson: > > 4. Koranen: The Quran 29:69 (Surah al-Ankabut) =E2=80=9CVerily! Allah i= s with > those > > who do good deeds.=E2=80=9D > > > > 4. .i ja'a bo la .allax. cu kansa lo prenu poi xamgu gasnu > > For this specific part of the text, I agree to choose the method 1-2, and > use {kansa} as the supplementary selbri. However, > 1. if you say {.i ja'a bo}, you should mention the previous part of the > text because {I BO} is a connection of two sentences, though I prefer > omitting {bo} and move {ja'a} into the selbri, {ja'a kansa}; > 2. the double "l" is not permitted in Lojban, {la .alax.}, {la .alylax.}, > {la .al.lax.} etc. are acceptable. > > > 2015-11-14 13:15 GMT+00:00 Erik Natanael Gustafsson: > > 3. Konfucius: "Wherever you go, go with all your heart." > > 3. .i ko klama ma kau ka'ai lo mulno cnize'i po'e do > > What is the original text? If it is an English translation of "=E6=97=A2= =E6=9D=A5=E4=B9=8B=E5=88=99=E5=AE=89=E4=B9=8B j=C3=AC > l=C3=A1i zh=C4=AB z=C3=A9 =C4=81n zh=C4=AB", you cite a very bad translat= ion. I would translate the > original text into Lojban as follows: > > (.i) ba'o klama ti .i na ja ko'oi panpi ti > > where the experimental cmavo {ko'oi} of UI is intended to span over the > sentence connective {i na ja}. > > mu'o mi'e la guskant > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7bb03e8036021005248e7562 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-11-15 0:21 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>:

2015-11-14 13:54 GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna:
&g= t;
> 2015-11-14 16:15 GMT+03:00 Erik Natanael Gustafsson:
>>
>> 4. Koranen: The Quran 29:69 (Surah al-Ank= abut) =E2=80=9CVerily! Allah is with
>> those who do good d= eeds.=E2=80=9D
>
>
<= div>> wa-inna l-laha lama=CA=BFa l-mu=E1=B8=A5'sin=C4=ABna
>
> "And indeed, Allah surely with good-doers."<= /div>
>
> Given that Lojban can elide selbri we get an = even more doubtful
> approximation:
>
&= gt; ije je'u la alax ba'e bu'u lo za'u zukte be lo zabna
>

This is a typical {malxelfanva= } containing two problems.

1. That part of the ori= ginal arabic text is in accusative case, and I interpret it as an expressio= n of the circumstantial accusative.

=
Given that accusative doesn't exist in Lojban ...
=C2=A0=
When translatin= g it into Lojban, we could:
1-1. translate the whole statement in= cluding the previous part of the text, or,
1-2. supplement the pa= rt with a selbri so that the readers find that the part represents the circ= umstances.

2. the form "I JA fragment" i= s not only officially ungrammatical

=
I used the official YACC parser =C2=A0for that fragment. The only comp= laint from the parser is the cmevla {alax} which is now acceptable due to o= fficializing of dotside.

Other than that that frag= ment is grammatical.

but also anti-logical from a point of view of logical o= peration.

You may add {co'e= } as the selbri. Why should we add any selbri that don't exist in the o= riginal?

Of course, we are translating the meaning= so there is some distance between retaining the original syntactic tree an= d making it sound in a supposedly Simple Lojban.
=C2=A0
{i ji'a (sai)} would = be acceptable translation for "wa-inna", though it is not the bes= t.


2015-11-14 13:1= 5 GMT+00:00 Erik Natanael Gustafsson:
> 4. Koranen: The Quran = 29:69 (Surah al-Ankabut) =E2=80=9CVerily! Allah is with those
>= ; who do good deeds.=E2=80=9D
>=C2=A0
> 4. .i ja'a bo la .allax. cu kansa lo prenu poi xamgu ga= snu

For this specific part of the text, I a= gree to choose the method 1-2, and use {kansa} as the supplementary selbri.= However,=C2=A0
1. if you say {.i ja'a bo}, you should mentio= n the previous part of the text because {I BO} is a connection of two sente= nces, though I prefer omitting {bo} and move {ja'a} into the selbri, {j= a'a kansa};=C2=A0
2. the double "l" is not permitte= d in Lojban, {la .alax.}, {la .alylax.}, {la .al.lax.} etc. are acceptable.=


2015-11-14 13:15 = GMT+00:00 Erik Natanael Gustafsson:
> 3. Konfucius: "Wher= ever you go, go with all your heart."
> 3. .i ko klama ma kau ka'ai lo mulno cnize'i po'e do

What is the original text? If it is an English= translation of "=E6=97=A2=E6=9D=A5=E4=B9=8B=E5=88=99=E5=AE=89=E4=B9= =8B j=C3=AC l=C3=A1i zh=C4=AB z=C3=A9 =C4=81n zh=C4=AB", you cite a ve= ry bad translation. I would translate the original text into Lojban as foll= ows:

(.i) ba'o klama ti .i na ja ko'oi pan= pi ti

where the experimental cmavo {ko'oi} of = UI is intended to span over the sentence connective {i na ja}.
mu'o mi'e la guskant
=

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.=
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lo= jban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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