Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 08:21:30 -0800 (PST)
From: guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>
To: Lojban Beginners <lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>
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Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Translations of quotes for my next piece
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Le dimanche 15 novembre 2015 11:41:38 UTC, Erik Natanael Gustafsson a=20
=C3=A9crit :
>
>
>
> On Saturday, November 14, 2015 at 10:21:50 PM UTC+1, guskant wrote:
>>
>>
>> 2015-11-14 13:15 GMT+00:00 Erik Natanael Gustafsson:
>> > 3. Konfucius: "Wherever you go, go with all your heart."
>> > 3. .i ko klama ma kau ka'ai lo mulno cnize'i po'e do
>>
>> What is the original text? If it is an English translation of "=E6=97=A2=
=E6=9D=A5=E4=B9=8B=E5=88=99=E5=AE=89=E4=B9=8B j=C3=AC=20
>> l=C3=A1i zh=C4=AB z=C3=A9 =C4=81n zh=C4=AB", you cite a very bad transla=
tion. I would translate the=20
>> original text into Lojban as follows:
>>
>> (.i) ba'o klama ti .i na ja ko'oi panpi ti
>>
>> where the experimental cmavo {ko'oi} of UI is intended to span over the=
=20
>> sentence connective {i na ja}.
>>
>> Okay, I unfortunately don't know any Chinese so I cannot comment on the=
=20
> accuracy of the translation. I can't wrap my head around your Lojban=20
> translation either though, specifically the "na ja ko'oi" part and what=
=20
> happens to the x1 of both selbri, that is who does the going and being at=
=20
> peace? Could you give me an explanation or an English translation?
>
>
In the original context, x1 of {klama} and {panpi} are people from the=20
enemy nation. When the statement is used as an aphorism, x1 may be the=20
speaker or the listener, spoken with hope, suggestion, or understanding on=
=20
a fact, depending on the context.=20

The original context is as follows.
King Ji of State Lu planned to attack State Zhuan Yu.
The ministers Ran You and Ji Lu came to consult Confucius, and said that=20
they didn't want but the king wanted to attack Zhuan Yu. Confucius said the=
=20
ministers must make efforts to execute their own missions; if they could=20
not execute, they should resign. The ministers said that Zhuan Yu was a=20
strong state and very close to one of the towns of State Lu; if they were=
=20
not going to attack Zhuan Yu soon, it would bring trouble to State Lu in=20
the future. Confucius said that the king would hate that the ministers=20
would try to change the king's plan by creating a plausible reason.=20
Confucius suggested to the ministers as follows:
"[...] If people are equal in economy, they don't feel poverty. If they are=
=20
friendly to each other, they don't feel depopulation. If they are stable,=
=20
they don't feel danger of the state. Therefore, if the distant people don't=
=20
obey your state, politely invite them to your state. having them come, that=
=20
is making them peaceful. You are currently ministers of the king; the=20
distant people don't obey, and you cannot even invite them; the state=20
people are split, you cannot save them, and you are even trying to move=20
weapons in the state. I am afraid that the sorrow of King Ji might be not=
=20
in Zhuan Yu but in his own state."

The part "having them come, that is making them peaceful" corresponds=20
indeed to the part=20
(.i) ba'o klama ti .i na ja ko'oi panpi ti .
If I translate the part word by word, the Lojban translation will be:

j=C3=AC
[ba'o]

l=C3=A1i
[gau klama ti]

zh=C4=AB
[fa ra]

z=C3=A9
[i na ja]

=C4=81n
[gau panpi]

zh=C4=AB
[fa ra] .

However, when the previous part is not translated, {ra} is meaningless. In=
=20
aphoristic use, x1 of the two selbri could vary according to the context,=
=20
and it is better omitting it. Thinking of x1 and x2 of {panpi} being=20
reciprocal, I made x2 of {panpi} explicit. As a result, the apparent form=
=20
of the text became similar to the original text. {ko'oi} is not necessary=
=20
in the original context, but may work better in aphoristic use.

mu'o mi'e la guskant
=20

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<br><br>Le dimanche 15 novembre 2015 11:41:38 UTC, Erik Natanael Gustafsson=
 a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;ma=
rgin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><br><br>On Saturday, November 14, 2015 at 10:21:50 PM UTC+1, guska=
nt wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br>=
</div><div>2015-11-14 13:15 GMT+00:00 Erik Natanael Gustafsson:</div><div>&=
gt; 3. Konfucius: &quot;Wherever you go, go with all your heart.&quot;</div=
><div>&gt; 3. .i ko klama ma kau ka&#39;ai lo mulno cnize&#39;i po&#39;e do=
</div><div><br></div><div>What is the original text? If it is an English tr=
anslation of &quot;=E6=97=A2=E6=9D=A5=E4=B9=8B=E5=88=99=E5=AE=89=E4=B9=8B j=
=C3=AC l=C3=A1i zh=C4=AB z=C3=A9 =C4=81n zh=C4=AB&quot;, you cite a very ba=
d translation. I would translate the original text into Lojban as follows:<=
/div><div><br></div><div>(.i) ba&#39;o klama ti .i na ja ko&#39;oi panpi ti=
</div><div><br></div><div>where the experimental cmavo {ko&#39;oi} of UI is=
 intended to span over the sentence connective {i na ja}.</div><div><br></d=
iv></div></blockquote><div>Okay, I unfortunately don&#39;t know any Chinese=
 so I cannot comment on the accuracy of the translation. I can&#39;t wrap m=
y head around your Lojban translation either though, specifically the &quot=
;na ja ko&#39;oi&quot; part and what happens to the x1 of both selbri, that=
 is who does the going and being at peace? Could you give me an explanation=
 or an English translation?<br><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>=
<div>In the original context, x1 of {klama} and {panpi} are people from the=
 enemy nation. When the statement is used as an aphorism, x1 may be the spe=
aker or the listener, spoken with hope, suggestion, or understanding on a f=
act, depending on the context.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>The original =
context is as follows.</div><div>King Ji of State Lu planned to attack Stat=
e Zhuan Yu.</div><div>The ministers Ran You and Ji Lu came to consult Confu=
cius, and said that they didn&#39;t want but the king wanted to attack Zhua=
n Yu. Confucius said the ministers must make efforts to execute their own m=
issions; if they could not execute, they should resign. The ministers said =
that Zhuan Yu was a strong state and very close to one of the towns of Stat=
e Lu; if they were not going to attack Zhuan Yu soon, it would bring troubl=
e to State Lu in the future. Confucius said that the king would hate that t=
he ministers would try to change the king&#39;s plan by creating a plausibl=
e reason. Confucius suggested to the ministers as follows:</div><div>&quot;=
[...] If people are equal in economy, they don&#39;t feel poverty. If they =
are friendly to each other, they don&#39;t feel depopulation. If they are s=
table, they don&#39;t feel danger of the state. Therefore, if the distant p=
eople don&#39;t obey your state, politely invite them to your state. having=
 them come, that is making them peaceful. You are currently ministers of th=
e king; the distant people don&#39;t obey, and you cannot even invite them;=
 the state people are split, you cannot save them, and you are even trying =
to move weapons in the state. I am afraid that the sorrow of King Ji might =
be not in Zhuan Yu but in his own state.&quot;</div><div><br></div><div>The=
 part &quot;having them come, that is making them peaceful&quot; correspond=
s indeed to the part=C2=A0</div><div>(.i) ba&#39;o klama ti .i na ja ko&#39=
;oi panpi ti .</div><div>If I translate the part word by word, the Lojban t=
ranslation will be:</div><div><div><div><br></div><div>j=C3=AC</div><div>[b=
a&#39;o]</div><div><br></div><div>l=C3=A1i</div><div>[gau klama ti]</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>zh=C4=AB</div><div>[fa ra]</div><div><br></div><div>z=C3=
=A9</div><div>[i na ja]</div><div><br></div><div>=C4=81n</div><div>[gau pan=
pi]</div><div><br></div><div>zh=C4=AB</div><div>[fa ra] .</div></div></div>=
<div><br></div><div>However, when the previous part is not translated, {ra}=
 is meaningless. In aphoristic use, x1 of the two selbri could vary accordi=
ng to the context, and it is better omitting it. Thinking of x1 and x2 of {=
panpi} being reciprocal, I made x2 of {panpi} explicit. As a result, the ap=
parent form of the text became similar to the original text. {ko&#39;oi} is=
 not necessary in the original context, but may work better in aphoristic u=
se.</div><div><br></div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e la guskant</div><div>=C2=A0<=
/div>

<p></p>

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