Received: from mail-pa0-f59.google.com ([209.85.220.59]:33625) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1ZzFFK-000839-NL for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 18:46:56 -0800 Received: by pabfh17 with SMTP id fh17sf14898820pab.0 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 18:46:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=ClLR0b6HUqB8ELtn3zLOz911hCzzlhv/j4X/OVR5z48=; b=CZBkQDzN0jNJRCu7mwcVMpDGyeIGQxmC9ZhTTEzrlzskB8bV/bU6orhdH3tbqXBDG1 oCvxGkVPB1UpUdV3yz42B+YvBXonbRAvqZjsV2uFtmy8RUgUGF5E1OnYgMBabXtXpHEP t6Lk6MmlAROkdlU1ruPoPUqVQllp+8BRwddqHTpEXyi5CGINXNdRie533kLz9IU7eHyb 0TlR1NE2N6ZsfGtIbSbVAMOaQMtiDdYSI+BQv+QFmepZ3WTf9U8QM4LHimewGFVnwdrG +AG+y+DSQvDTTwA4iVj9j6l3EJWQJ2KVwKiyj7uqxT1DrSApzCwoiFllbfEw6fA5ogk7 kY2g== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=ClLR0b6HUqB8ELtn3zLOz911hCzzlhv/j4X/OVR5z48=; b=QH1tdgqzSitedT7HyQ2PXflduv+6cDaU/zTq+n9dQ+t6Lu//nzS/LgjJAGfaA+aSVV 7dUpPeZhmGpK5nE9hENRk6fqiyh6NmM8VZBCqFgPOI8tJpeMQEHrwOJZTiEdse8jUijd TPjSGPypvL24AWAxodHk+PZ/mkpfcRmBtX/Gk1VlXzIUZ2YsnaGtkhL6ix8mmjAYlshw imaghxiFBlhaFdPzhxhzbplE9SGJgRKwMsX7ogg3WZ2+x5C1Na5s6MEAXOTU/a0ZtDNV QudQk4CHGBSXEI07bdr3bT/le/+M2Hp4GW1WsgCpq33FwQ/1fteHMi3LFRNxMvWFvbKa ttQQ== X-Received: by 10.182.250.169 with SMTP id zd9mr78011obc.1.1447901204942; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 18:46:44 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.104.73 with SMTP id gc9ls293131obb.24.gmail; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 18:46:44 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.182.196.9 with SMTP id ii9mr77193obc.7.1447901203988; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 18:46:43 -0800 (PST) X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 18:46:43 -0800 (PST) From: Andrew To: Lojban Beginners Message-Id: <26e0bad3-bab0-4d3e-be93-d1641a9ae49d@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Sarcasm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_89_1115095665.1447901203310" X-Original-Sender: summerfallsaway@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - ------=_Part_89_1115095665.1447901203310 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_90_1816349512.1447901203310" ------=_Part_90_1816349512.1447901203310 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was about to say that using an attitudinal for sarcasm, irony, and/or=20 joking would sort of ruin the intended effect -- but actually I think there= =20 *is* an appropriate use case: informal text. Attitudinals are often compared to emoticons, and emoticons are commonly=20 used to help clarify the writer's intended mood and meaning in Internet=20 chat, forums, and emails. People tend to write in a very loose,=20 conversational style on the internet, so their writing lacks both the=20 precision of more formal writing and the nuance of spoken inflections and= =20 tone. So, while announcing that you are telling a silly joke probably makes= =20 it less funny in speech, it's maybe safer, when being ironical/sarcastic on= =20 the internet, to append the line with a winky face, or a "jk" ("just=20 kidding"). And an attitudinal would serve the same purpose. ~Andrew On Tuesday, November 17, 2015 at 9:47:52 PM UTC-8, stevo wrote: > > If a cmavo indicating sarcasm (e.g., xo'o) is used, is the resulting=20 > utterance still sarcasm?=20 > > stevo > > On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 9:10 PM, guskant > > wrote: > >> >> >> Le mercredi 18 novembre 2015 00:01:49 UTC, la .tamar. a =C3=A9crit : >>> >>> coi >>> >>> My friend wanted to know if there is an attitudinal for showing sarcasm= . >>> >>> Is there one? >>> >>> Thanks :) >>> >> >> {xo'o} of selma'o UI is suggested and used by many people, though not ye= t=20 >> official: >> http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/xo'o >> >> The parser zantufa of version 0.1 or later, as well as the current=20 >> ilmentufa of experimental grammar, parses {xo'o} as UI. >> http://guskant.github.io/gerna_cipra/zantufa-1.html >> http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/camxes-exp.html >> >> In the past, {xo'o} was sometimes proposed for some different meanings,= =20 >> but it seems that only the proposal for the meaning of sarcasm survived. >> https://mw.lojban.org/papri/obsolete_experimental_cmavo >> >> --=20 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s=20 >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n=20 >> email to lojban-beginne...@googlegroups.com . >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-b...@googlegroups.com=20 >> . >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_90_1816349512.1447901203310 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I was about to say that using an attitudinal for sarcasm, = irony, and/or joking would sort of ruin the intended effect -- but actually= I think there is an appropriate use case: informal text.

Att= itudinals are often compared to emoticons, and emoticons are commonly used = to help clarify the writer's intended mood and meaning in Internet chat= , forums, and emails. People tend to write in a very loose, conversational = style on the internet, so their writing lacks both the precision of more fo= rmal writing and the nuance of spoken inflections and tone. So, while annou= ncing that you are telling a silly joke probably makes it less funny in spe= ech, it's maybe safer, when being ironical/sarcastic on the internet, t= o append the line with a winky face, or a "jk" ("just kiddin= g"). And an attitudinal would serve the same purpose.

~Andrew

On Tuesday, November 17, 2015 at 9:47:52 PM UTC-8, stevo wrote:
If a cmavo indicating sarcasm (e.g., xo&#= 39;o) is used, is the resulting utterance still sarcasm?=C2=A0

stevo

On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 9:10 PM, guskant <gusni...@gma= il.com> wrote:


Le mercredi 18 novembre 2015 00:01:49 UTC, la .tamar. a = =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
c= oi

My friend wanted to know if there is an attitudinal for showing s= arcasm.

Is there one?

Thanks :)
{xo'o} of selma'o UI is suggested and used by m= any people, though not yet official:

Th= e parser zantufa of version 0.1 or later, as well as the current ilmentufa = of experimental grammar, parses {xo'o} as UI.

=
In the past, {xo'o} was sometimes proposed for some different mean= ings, but it seems that only the proposal for the meaning of sarcasm surviv= ed.


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